tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post1689715890580339645..comments2024-03-28T03:16:14.104-04:00Comments on Noahpinion: How successful are Jews really?Noah Smithhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09093917601641588575noreply@blogger.comBlogger89125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-29699406019003773132013-12-14T10:30:31.182-05:002013-12-14T10:30:31.182-05:00Noah, Good post. Oddly I did a post on a similar...Noah, Good post. Oddly I did a post on a similar topic recently. I left this in the comment section--I wonder if you have any thoughts:<br /><br />Also some people mentioned that this is an awkward topic to discuss. What can we learn from that? Would it be awkward to discuss the poor educational/income achievements of various other minority groups? Obviously not, for instance the media is full of articles about how poorly the Roma in Europe have done in education/income. They were viewed as inferior by the Nazis. Hence there is nothing intrinsically sensitive about discussing the achievements of different groups, even groups with a history of Nazi persecution. Does our discussion of the Roma implicitly give comfort to people with Nazi-era stereotypes? But this issue is sensitive. We could learn a lot about people’s beliefs if we understood why.ssumner@bentley.eduhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12597713698236031523noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-2932813367508927422013-08-23T03:09:09.646-04:002013-08-23T03:09:09.646-04:00Think of Einstein, Von Neumann, Feynman...
http:/...Think of Einstein, Von Neumann, Feynman...<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jewish_intelligence<br /><br /> "Their argument has four main premises:<br /><br />[1]<br />Today's Ashkenazi Jews have a higher average mathematical and verbal IQ and an unusual cognitive profile compared to other ethnic groups, including Sephardi and Mizrahi Jews.<br /><br />[2]<br />From roughly 800 to 1650 CE, Ashkenazi Jews in Europe were a mostly isolated genetic group. When Ashkenazi Jews married non-Jews, they usually left the Jewish community; few non-Jews married into the Jewish community.<br /><br />[3]<br />During the same period, laws barred Ashkenazi Jews from working most jobs, including farming and crafts, and forced them into finance, management, and international trade. Wealthy Jews had several more children per family than poor Jews. So, genes for cognitive traits such as verbal and mathematical talent, which make a person successful in the few fields where Jews could work, were favored; genes for irrelevant traits, such as spatio-visual abilities, were supported by less selective pressure than in the general population. Furthermore, ostensibly intelligent Rabbis were not barred from reproduction as learned scholars of Christianity were, who were sequestered in monasteries and nunneries.<br /><br />[4]<br />Today's Ashkenazi Jews suffer from a number of congenital diseases and mutations at higher rates than most other ethnic groups; these include Tay-Sachs, Gaucher's disease, Bloom's syndrome, and Fanconi anemia, and mutations at BRCA1 and BRCA2. These mutations' effects cluster in only a few metabolic pathways, suggesting that they arise from selective pressure rather than genetic drift. One cluster of these diseases affects sphingolipid storage, a secondary effect of which is increased growth of axons and dendrites. At least one of the diseases in this cluster, torsion dystonia, has been found anecdotally to correlate with exceptionally high IQ. Another cluster disrupts DNA repair, an extremely dangerous sort of mutation which is lethal in homozygotes. The authors speculate that these mutations give a cognitive benefit to heterozygotes by reducing inhibitions to neural growth, a benefit that would not outweigh its high costs except in an environment where it was strongly rewarded."<br /><br /><br />Also from:<br />http://elijahlarmstrong.wordpress.com/2013/07/11/serum-urate-among-ashkenazim/<br /><br /><br />"Ashkenazi Jews have high intelligence (IQ ~110) but their achievement is in excess of this. There is also some evidence for high psychological ‘intensity’ among Ashkenazim (MacDonald, Understanding Jewish Influence) and for high levels of serum urate. In the study of Erdberg, Boner, van Dyk and Carel (1991; http://www.karger.com/Article/Abstract/186728), Ashenazi patients with insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus and controls had significantly (p < 0.05) higher levels of serum urate than Sephardics. This suggests to me that Ashkenazim have high serum urate levels, which may explain their achievement and intensity (serum urate is a psychostimulant and correlates with high academic achievement when controlling for g). What do you think?"William Wilberfangnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-47146147584690299152013-08-15T04:33:26.026-04:002013-08-15T04:33:26.026-04:00Ironically my paternal grandmother was born a &quo...Ironically my paternal grandmother was born a "Smith". But I would bet that a Smith from East London is not an East European Jew. So no relation.reasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10958786975015285323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-90397360814751524862013-08-15T04:29:33.716-04:002013-08-15T04:29:33.716-04:00There is a debate internal to the jewish community...<i>There is a debate internal to the jewish community about their own "whiteness". </i><br /><br />Really? This is the first I've ever heard of such a debate in my three decades of life.Noah Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09093917601641588575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-70368199434859720022013-08-15T04:20:22.078-04:002013-08-15T04:20:22.078-04:00P.S. The talk about Norman and Scottish is also nu...P.S. The talk about Norman and Scottish is also nuts - just a joke really. I have a scottish grandfather, but he had an Irish name. I had a grandfather with a Norman name, but what fraction of his ancestors were Norman I can only guess - and there is no reason to thinki that that diminishing fraction has a strong influence over many generations.reasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10958786975015285323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-55761528416229967942013-08-15T04:15:24.170-04:002013-08-15T04:15:24.170-04:00MaxUtility - the use of the term "White"...MaxUtility - the use of the term "White" (capitised no less) - is just nuts. Go back far enough and we are all africans. Go to a beach in Germany in summer and you will see all shades of colour. On the other hand asians who avoid the sun are paler than the average European. Humans move around a lot, and interbreeding between populations is very common. Trying to squeeze them into strict categories is just an odd thing to do.reasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10958786975015285323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-49131063819271267372013-08-15T04:07:56.222-04:002013-08-15T04:07:56.222-04:00". It doesn't seem to be teachable; some ...". It doesn't seem to be teachable; some of the hardest working people I know had complete slacker parents and vice versa."<br /><br />That seems logical - in a household there is always a certain amount of work that must be done. So if the parents don't do it, the kids must - and vice versa. You could just as easily say that hard working parents teach their kids to be lazy (because they do everything for them).<br /><br />reasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10958786975015285323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-56257525733305785172013-08-15T04:02:49.568-04:002013-08-15T04:02:49.568-04:00But business success seems to lie more on the othe...But business success seems to lie more on the other side of my family (the Norman heritage).reasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10958786975015285323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-59184523960652606822013-08-14T23:33:37.109-04:002013-08-14T23:33:37.109-04:00"2. A culture that values education and hard ..."2. A culture that values education and hard work"<br /><br />Don't underestimate the value of a culture which values education.<br /><br />There are actually a lot of cultures which value education. And then... there are some which DON'T.<br /><br />The cultural groups which sneer at education and valorize ignorance really *do* have a tendency to be less successful than the ones which value education. You can chart this out with any number of examples, including Republicans today (who tend to sneer at education and valorize ignorance) vs. non-Republicans (who don't).<br /><br />Of course, when I put it this way, the reaction may be "well, duh". Valorizing ignorance, rejecting education, and resolutely living in a fantasy world don't *sound* like they should help with success, do they? WTF would they help?<br /><br />And for a Jewish example, there are certain Jewish Haredi groups who sneer at "secular learning", and they have not exactly been successful except in becoming violent and intolerant thugs with high birthrates living off welfare.<br /><br />I guess I'm also redefining the question, though along different lines. Being a negative-minded person in general, I think the "why are X so successful" question is really best asked in the form "Why are Y so *un*successful". I think that "X do better than average" claims often conceal that the "average" being compared against comes from a multi-modal distribution with the identifiable unusual groups being on the other end.<br /><br />As for the answer to the "Why are Y so unsuccessful" question, often it's discrimination, often it's starting poverty, and occasionally (as in the case of groups which are truly, openly hostile to education) it's genuinely bad attitudes. <br /><br />I complete discount any claims about "valuing hard work". Why do I consider claims about valuing education but not ones about valuing hard work? Because it seems to have been pretty well proved that people can inculcate their kids with values about whether education is good or not, but I've never seen any evidence that people can inculcate their kids with values about hard work. It doesn't seem to be teachable; some of the hardest working people I know had complete slacker parents and vice versa.Nathanaelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-89983893243267068152013-08-14T21:38:42.676-04:002013-08-14T21:38:42.676-04:00Not very good work Noah. You probably have looked ...Not very good work Noah. You probably have looked at the response to Unz's claims from Andrew Gelman. Would welcome your critique.<br /><br />http://andrewgelman.com/2013/02/12/that-claim-that-harvard-admissions-discriminate-in-favor-of-jews-after-checking-the-statistics-maybe-not/<br /><br />On the other hand I didn't know you were Jewish but suspected that you might have been when you wrote about depression.<br /><br />Why do you think that thought occurred to this depressive Ashkenazic assimilated atheist two generations out of the pale of settlement?<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-71342773311697936992013-08-14T13:31:29.234-04:002013-08-14T13:31:29.234-04:00I'll just state that Jews also tended to "...I'll just state that Jews also tended to "prefer" vocations that they were legally allowed to practice. Jewish culture and traditions did not evolve in a vacuum, they're have been many aspects affecting Jews that had little or nothing to do with their own "preferences".MaxUtilitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-15024028046122959912013-08-14T13:27:50.591-04:002013-08-14T13:27:50.591-04:00"all Caucasian Jews see themselves as "w...<i>"all Caucasian Jews see themselves as "white". In America"</i><br />I think this is generally true, but definitely not universal. There is a debate internal to the jewish community about their own "whiteness". However, I think the answer is rarely resolved mostly due to the issue that "white" has generally been and remains pretty much undefined. I don't think "white power" advocates see Jews as white certainly. MaxUtilitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-66125646234903133842013-08-14T11:50:56.724-04:002013-08-14T11:50:56.724-04:00Why do you describe yourself as "a Jew"....<i>Why do you describe yourself as "a Jew". Why aren't you just an American of eastern European descent?</i><br /><br />Because...who cares?<br /><br /><i>although that seems to be where academic ability in the family comes from</i><br /><br />See, I knew Teh Scots were the Teh Best! :-)Noah Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09093917601641588575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-4049488190012257472013-08-14T11:34:49.985-04:002013-08-14T11:34:49.985-04:00And following another part of the post - I could f...And following another part of the post - I could follow the paternal line to my paternal grandfather and claim proudly to be Scottish - but regard that as completely ridiculous (I'm a complete mongrel - although that seems to be where academic ability in the family comes from). Why do you see it otherwise?reasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10958786975015285323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-76123807622548641292013-08-14T11:31:35.699-04:002013-08-14T11:31:35.699-04:00OK Noah,
I'll a little less subtly. Why do yo...OK Noah,<br /> I'll a little less subtly. Why do you describe yourself as "a Jew". Why aren't you just an American of eastern European descent? I consider myself an Australian of western European (primarily the British Islands) descent. What does that label mean? Why is it important?reasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10958786975015285323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-70089210184269911172013-08-14T11:18:13.076-04:002013-08-14T11:18:13.076-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.reasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10958786975015285323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-48002131799178885502013-08-14T11:10:07.082-04:002013-08-14T11:10:07.082-04:00Maybe the sort of answer I would be looking for is...Maybe the sort of answer I would be looking for is "Whites wtf are they"? You mean Barry White?reasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10958786975015285323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-377120896664539092013-08-14T09:57:41.638-04:002013-08-14T09:57:41.638-04:00Well, maybe. But what I see happening is that a lo...Well, maybe. But what I see happening is that a lot of people fall victim to the "Nobody wants to talk about it, so it must be the Awful Truth" fallacy. They half-believe a bunch of tired old conventional ideas simply because those ideas seem secretive and cool and verboten. I think that's how most of the sexist and racist stuff survives.Noah Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09093917601641588575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-65640198399010082432013-08-14T09:43:00.192-04:002013-08-14T09:43:00.192-04:00" You can't shame people into changing th... " You can't shame people into changing their minds about stuff."<br /> Noah I think I once thought that this was in fact a reasonable answer. But it forgets about externalities. You treating the unacceptable as acceptable might affect third parties. That is why I mostly ignore trolls, but when trolls make reasonable sounding arguments, I try to demolish them, not to change the mind of the troll (impossible), but to prevent third parties from thinking they have a point.reasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10958786975015285323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-75846892789839911912013-08-14T09:15:17.762-04:002013-08-14T09:15:17.762-04:00So is the answer to your question--"How succe...<i>So is the answer to your question--"How successful are the Jews, really?"--that Jews are really successful?</i><br /><br />They are pretty successful (by the normal metrics of money and academic and social status).<br /><br />But probably not as <i>abnormally</i> successful as many believe. A lot of their success (though not necessarily all) can probably be ascribed to boring, obvious factors, instead of to cultural or genetic advantages.<br /><br />Does that make sense?Noah Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09093917601641588575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-90475500723508771902013-08-14T09:12:58.723-04:002013-08-14T09:12:58.723-04:00I don't think you should honour anonymous raci...<i>I don't think you should honour anonymous racists with polite answers.</i><br /><br />Why not? You can't shame people into changing their minds about stuff. And I'm certainly not at all offended. <br /><br />There are only a small number of Jews in the world, and most of them (understandably) get upset when people start talking about stuff like this. So there are a lot of people out there who think incorrect stuff about Jews, like "Jews aren't nationalistic". So the world needs a few Jews to go out and tell what's really going on. Since I could never be offended by anything that anyone could ever say about Jews, I figure I'm the one to do it.Noah Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09093917601641588575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-44304509064968113212013-08-14T09:09:24.843-04:002013-08-14T09:09:24.843-04:00Noah,
I don't think you should honour anonymo...Noah,<br /> I don't think you should honour anonymous racists with polite answers.reasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10958786975015285323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-75171323526995927762013-08-14T08:48:41.746-04:002013-08-14T08:48:41.746-04:00The entire post lays out pretty clearly how real I...<i>The entire post lays out pretty clearly how real I think Jewish success is</i><br /><br />Either we have differing definitions of clarity, or you overstate your case.<br /><br />So is the answer to your question--"How successful are the Jews, really?"--that Jews are really successful?<br /><br />(I note that, further down the page, you reply to the statement, "maybe Jews aren't that successful, but are pretty successful in industries that have your attention" with: "definitely".)vimothyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03640237743360160587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-31061555201247261422013-08-14T08:30:49.771-04:002013-08-14T08:30:49.771-04:00Absalon,
"schon vergessen" doesn't ...Absalon,<br /> "schon vergessen" doesn't mean "I don't understand" - it could mean "I forgot" but more likely "have you already forgotten it"? Most likely he understood some English - or simply knew what name meant, but couldn't speak it.reasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10958786975015285323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-45925968745985425452013-08-14T06:17:25.415-04:002013-08-14T06:17:25.415-04:00Werner Sombart thought Jews invented capitalism, s...Werner Sombart thought Jews invented capitalism, so there is a reason to be successful. Austrian economics might be called Hebrew economics because it was derived from the European Jewish economic and political experience.<br /><br />I asked a friend and he said he thought Jews preferred vocations and professions that were portable, just in case. His uncle was a Jewish strongman named Breitbart. Werner Hertzog did a movie about him. He came from a family of blacksmiths. This could be Noah. <br />http://www.yivoencyclopedia.org/article.aspx/Breitbart_Zishe<br /><br />He had a hard death involving a series of amputations after breaking an oak board over his knee. The board contained a nail and the wound became infected.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com