tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post2152570791404561258..comments2024-03-28T03:16:14.104-04:00Comments on Noahpinion: Do property rights increase freedom? (Japan edition)Noah Smithhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09093917601641588575noreply@blogger.comBlogger59125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-86790460377527354382013-08-15T17:31:05.938-04:002013-08-15T17:31:05.938-04:00Noah, you really seem to project whatever you don&...Noah, you really seem to project whatever you don't like onto Libertarianism. Where is a Libertarian group working for what you complain about?<br /><br />The Libertarian argument is against coercive government 'public' common entities, not common public entities, and for rights in general.<br /><br />They've made good points showing these entities can and are being provided voluntarily privately or without taxation, and often the coercive government service is not what it seems actually preventing better options. <br /><br />They've criticized economists as pretty fact-free and as ignoring 90% of economic activity, while introducing bogus concepts like public goods or externalities for political reasons.<br /><br />Their argument is against the commons being based on coercion, not the commons. Address that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-23266043640223809082012-07-21T21:56:17.404-04:002012-07-21T21:56:17.404-04:00"pay as you go is cheaper than buffet no tran..."pay as you go is cheaper than buffet no transaction cost service"<br /><br />Is it? My impression was that it's usually more expensive, for the same amount of usage, but paygo allows you to use less and thus pay less.Damien Sullivanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13321329197063620556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-79636722448810916522012-07-21T21:54:48.039-04:002012-07-21T21:54:48.039-04:00"By contrast, out in the suburbs everywhere (..."By contrast, out in the suburbs everywhere (Japan and US), even privately owned businesses provide free parking."<br /><br />AIUI, in the US that's often due to local government mandate, requiring businesses to provide X spots or Y amount of parking area. Prevents them from being a free rider on curbside parking, but also mandates sprawl that requires cars to get around. Vicious circle.<br /><br />There are obviously places where providing parking is in the interest of the business, in order to have customers; my paragraph above probably applies to medium density suburbs and smaller businesses, as opposed to more isolated malls or big box stores.Damien Sullivanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13321329197063620556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-26770407957000987992012-07-08T06:51:24.202-04:002012-07-08T06:51:24.202-04:00'I go to work everyday for a libertarian think...'I go to work everyday for a libertarian think tank...'<br /><br />'We're not crazy...'<br /><br />The second statement runs counter to the first.Conscience Warriorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13487448481194494386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-360387407895856302012-06-14T12:17:57.398-04:002012-06-14T12:17:57.398-04:00I was just thinking the same thing. I like your &...I was just thinking the same thing. I like your "internet in a parallel universe".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-86283048626040225662012-06-12T08:15:57.933-04:002012-06-12T08:15:57.933-04:00As someone who has lived in Japan for 14 years, I ...As someone who has lived in Japan for 14 years, I would qualify this comment, a bit, IbuMichele. The parks in my metro Tokyo area town are full of garbage, and there is more litter in general then I notice in the States. Garbage cans were removed from train platforms ten years ago to encourage people to carry their own garbage out of stations but that did not work. Garbage cans are back in train and subway stations. So, I would say people do carry their own garbage...except when they do not. People who do pick up their own garbage tend to be who you might expect- older people. My Japanese wife points out, it has nothing to do with "feeling part of the greater whole," but with social pressure.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-78345016738493689022012-05-06T09:34:53.480-04:002012-05-06T09:34:53.480-04:00Take more breaks from macro. Loved this post and ...Take more breaks from macro. Loved this post and comments. Good macro too, though.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-28536144642660460342012-04-26T07:37:12.395-04:002012-04-26T07:37:12.395-04:00Interested in your and others' comments on mic...Interested in your and others' comments on microtransactions. It reminds me of reviews of "Poor Economics" (Banerjuee & Dufflo). They argue that a problem people have to face in less developed economies is having to make endless small efforts and decisions. The result is that their reserves of mental energy and willpower are wasted on lots of small decisions.<br /><br />For example, they have to decide whether to sterilise/boil water and then make the effort to do so.<br />I on the other hand can just turn on the tap, have a glass of water, and get on with the rest of my life. Whether I make good use of the abundance of intellectual energy and willpower thus left to me is another matter....Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14014996272817759191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-7157965231173944262012-03-29T11:52:53.695-04:002012-03-29T11:52:53.695-04:00"Now, if the government chose to tax wealthie..."Now, if the government chose to tax wealthier people to provide things, that would help the poor people. But you're confusing redistribution with pricing mechanism. Perhaps rather than the government providing the goods equally to rich and poor alike, poor people are better off with efficiently allocated goods but direct redistribution of wealth?"<br /><br />Yesreasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10958786975015285323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-63634004137992531802012-03-10T12:48:24.158-05:002012-03-10T12:48:24.158-05:00I think you're real gripe is the cost of the p...<i>I think you're real gripe is the cost of the parks, cups of coffee so as to sit down, toll roads, relative to your salary.</i><br /><br />Someone doesn't know me very well. ;)Noah Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09093917601641588575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-72496039915464871632012-03-10T00:54:40.579-05:002012-03-10T00:54:40.579-05:00I think you're real gripe is the cost of the p...I think you're real gripe is the cost of the parks, cups of coffee so as to sit down, toll roads, relative to your salary. In other words, Tokyo gets on your nerves because it makes you feel poor and thus boxed in and "unfree", whereas you would feel "free" if you had the same income in some small town in the United States. Do you really think poor people in the United States, who can't get a job due to the recession and have no money and have to to put up with all sorts of abuse by the police and predation by other poor people, really feel "free" because of free parks and benches and garbage cans? Lack of money is a major cause of people feeling unfree. The necessity to pay out money they do have in dribs and drabs is a trivial cause of the "unfree" feeling by comparison.frhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14980384436598923074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-56837931801678494482012-03-05T03:21:35.499-05:002012-03-05T03:21:35.499-05:00Wow. I'm really impressed by the level of dis...Wow. I'm really impressed by the level of discourse here... makes me think i've stumbled onto an internet in a parallel universe. Libertarians and socialists having a mature discussion, using Japan and U.S. as a case study. poop jokes, but no name calling or trolling. Great thread. How intensely is it moderated?Ana R. Chistnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-63151689523976693292012-01-17T10:24:40.592-05:002012-01-17T10:24:40.592-05:00Quick P.S. Property Ownership is a tool of denial ...Quick P.S. Property Ownership is a tool of denial of resources. That's why it makes things seem so 'valuable' or 'value - able': because if you can't deny something to someone, you can't exploit them for it (put a price on it by getting OTHER people to fight you for it). The problem with redistributive economics (the 99%'ers) is that the wealth should never have been taken out of the ground in the first place. 80% of the people own 7% of the wealth. That means we could get rid of 20% and leave 93% of the resources for our future. HuhNature Creek Farmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11628016586734984351noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-58935813493995490122012-01-17T10:21:01.647-05:002012-01-17T10:21:01.647-05:00We all need to be better informed about where '...We all need to be better informed about where 'rights' come from. America tends to take for granted that we are "endowed by our Creator with life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness", but the only thing that grants these rights is a group/body saying so on a piece of paper. The only actual natural right is the right to TRY and live, which you lose once you die. All other rights are statutory. The Libertarians just don't want to take the responsibility in hand that is required to specify what people have the right to do or not do, to own and not own, or to pay and not pay. They want life to come from Blind Faith in the Invisible Hand or any other imagined force that doesn't come from real people doing hard work and making hard decisions about other real people (or the planet that future people will need). Same goes for Conservatives, who like the Bible so much because they don't have to write a new one that might include something about science and reality and logic. When combined with the fact that "people do stuff, they have reasons for doing stuff: in that order", we start to see how difficult it is to actually determine morality (Net Future Usefulness), and God knows, NOBODY wants to fuckin' go THERE.Nature Creek Farmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11628016586734984351noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-7663586185100246462012-01-17T07:00:57.256-05:002012-01-17T07:00:57.256-05:00I went to Japan for the first time this year and n...I went to Japan for the first time this year and noticed the same thing. It didn't seem as bad as the way you make it seem, but everything required a dollar or two to use. Even in a public museum there was a desk with old-timey masks people could take a picture with - 15 yen.<br /><br />It felt just sad. It reminded me of airlines in the US, where everything costs a little more. I don't know if it costs less to the consumer (I doubt an airline lowered ticket prices by exactly $25 after instituting a $25 checked bag fee), but I know it doesn't relax people. Always thinking about money, about what to do to save a few dollars...Alex Blazehttp://handsupgunsout.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-55597731076191117772012-01-12T01:43:57.088-05:002012-01-12T01:43:57.088-05:001. Hard to find a trashcan in Japan, seriously? N...1. Hard to find a trashcan in Japan, seriously? Noah -- go to any of the tens of thousands of 24-hour convenience stores, each of which has "burnable", "unburn-able" and "pet bottle/can" bins conveniently located in front. No need to carry the PET bottle of water you bought at the last store (or in the vending machine) it all the way home.<br /><br />And even if there are not many water fountains, the water can almost always be free if you just ask for someone to fill your bottle, or do it yourself at a faucet (for hand washing). <br /><br />2. And how do you compare the clean, free, public restrooms so easy to find in Japan with the filthy, stinking, vandalized ones in so many other places (not sure about Osaka here, just talking about my experience in East Japan).<br /><br />3. Yes, not enough park benches or parks, but that is more a result of density/late development than anything else. Go to newer or redeveloped areas and you find vast open spaces and lots of benches -- Odaiba, for example. Or even now Marunouchi in Central Tokyo, which has been redeveloped in recent years. Lots of lounging space and seats/benches on Nakadori, or inside the buildings. No purchase required.<br /><br />4. The greatest freedom from living in Japan comes from personal safety. No need for gated communities or armed guards. No extra security costs to keep "us" safe from "them." No need to limit your time/place of movement out of fear. I can go almost anywhere in the country, alone, even lie down on the edge of the street and sleep, and will not come to any harm. I'm more likely to get invited in for a warm meal and a conversation about someone's nephew who is living in New York or L.A.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-7776890444874710352011-12-29T23:47:36.144-05:002011-12-29T23:47:36.144-05:00Good piece.
But I'd like to point out that the...Good piece.<br />But I'd like to point out that there are a number of things that are free, or very low-cost, in Japan that are not widely available in the U.S.<br /><br />For example, Japan has excellent, low-cost public transport. By contrast, in much of the U.S., people are forced to buy and maintain a car just to make it through the day.<br /><br />I've compared notes with Japanese friends on what they pay yearly for public transport versus what I pay for owning a car, and the difference is vast, when you add in car payments, insurance, maintenance, gas, etc.<br /><br />(Oh, and you also know that you're doing something good for the environment. In the vast areas of the U.S. where there is zero public transport, you have no such option).<br /><br />I've talked to a number of Japanese workers who have told me that they get to vacation at company-owned lodges, which are either free, or nearly free. I've not seen this sort of arrangement in the U.S.<br /><br />Public education is free, of course, in Japan. Yes, it's free in the U.S., too----but the key difference is that public education is actually very good quality in Japan, which normally ranks at least in the top five of nations worldwide yearly in academic rankings.<br /><br />Of course, U.S. public education is truly dismal and increasingly Third-World-like.<br /><br />Oh, and on the subject of freedom. I'm not sure that most Americans would know true freedom if it bit them on the ass. It's laughable to talk about America as the "Land of the Free" when we have an incredible 2.4 million people behind bars. (By contrast, Japan's prison population is tiny: only around 80,000).<br /><br />The U.S. not only has the world's biggest prison population, but we also have the world's highest incarceration rates. And thanks to our racist courts and legal system, the poor and minorities are much more likely to do hard time in prison for petty nickel/dime drug offenses, while many of the true crooks (like the criminals who looted Wall Street and got a trillion-dollar tax bailout) have never faced charges, much less jail time.<br /><br />Speaking of freedom, the cost of our nation's gigantic prison population runs about $200 billion per year. And that's a cost that all taxpayers have to bear in America.Marc McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17105754072842852126noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-13274191624186594422011-12-15T07:03:54.913-05:002011-12-15T07:03:54.913-05:00I think it is pretty clear that Equality is what w...I think it is pretty clear that Equality is what we should be working towards.Toronto condos for salehttp://www.valuehomes.ca/Toronto_Listings/page_2201418.htmlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-47971133363803230242011-09-15T12:57:44.772-04:002011-09-15T12:57:44.772-04:00If you accidentally get on a toll road you have to...<i>If you accidentally get on a toll road you have to pay disproportionately for your mistake. Also it takes a lot of time to slow down and pay the toll.</i><br /><br />The latter is an efficiency, to be sure, but decreased by electronic tolling.<br /><br />The former is a difference in degree, not kind. If you accidentally go in the wrong direction you have to pay in excess gas. Do you think that gasoline should also be taxed less, even subsidized, since high taxes on gasoline hurt the poor more?<br /><br />You might not, because of worries about overconsumption and running out of oil. But again that's <b>scarcity</b> rearing its ugly head.<br /><br />Scarcity almost always hits the poor hardest.John Thackerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15269867695937765049noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-43428066125540344992011-09-15T12:53:18.616-04:002011-09-15T12:53:18.616-04:00Most of these things that you're talking about...Most of these things that you're talking about tend to be free in "capitalistic" American culture, and most free in places like suburbs and shopping malls. Sometimes the market price is free, and sometimes people don't like microtransactions.<br /><br />They tend to be charged for in dense urban areas the world over, in the very places that vote the least libertarian!<br /><br />That suggests that the issue is really about scarcity and how to pay for it.<br /><br /><i>I think your cell phone example works out in favor of my argument. rich people don't micro-optmize their payment plans; they pay to avoid the hassle cost of doing so, in the form of unused minutes.</i><br /><br />I disagree, I think it works against your argument. Reality is the opposite of your prediction.<br /><br />The reason that pay as you go is cheaper than all you can eat is the same reason as the tragedy of the commons. If you forced the only plans available to be the ones that poor people choose to avoid, they would be worse off.<br /><br />Yes, rich people don't have to optimize; that's a large part of what being rich is, ignoring scarcity. But that doesn't mean that poor people would be better off if more efficient pricing strategies weren't used at all. Precisely because they need to optimize, efficiency is important. If they were forced to pay for the non-optimized plans, they would be worse off and couldn't afford them.<br /><br />Now, if the government chose to tax wealthier people to provide things, that would help the poor people. But you're confusing redistribution with pricing mechanism. Perhaps rather than the government providing the goods equally to rich and poor alike, poor people are better off with efficiently allocated goods but direct redistribution of wealth?<br /><br />Indeed, the societies considered most equal, in Europe and Japan, tend to have more redistribution to the poor but more micropayments and direct charges. (They're not considered "libertarian," though.)<br /><br />It's the USA, by contrast, that actually has a lot more government services that are free (or heavily subsidized) at the point of use, combined with fewer direct transfers from rich to poor. (But lot of middle class to middle class transfers shuffling money around.)John Thackerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15269867695937765049noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-49123639101004586202011-09-15T12:42:47.996-04:002011-09-15T12:42:47.996-04:00This is why most poor people are uninterested in l...<i>This is why most poor people are uninterested in libertarianism and capitalism. It reduces their freedoms in favor of those with more money.</i><br /><br />This is certainly true to some extent; poor people would prefer paying for things with their time compared to people that have money.<br /><br />However, when it's an emergency and you have to get somewhere in a hurry, maybe the hospital, then it's nice even for a poor person to have the option of paying for an uncongested toll road.John Thackerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15269867695937765049noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-40064766324645020702011-09-15T12:40:34.249-04:002011-09-15T12:40:34.249-04:00"And cities don't provide parking spaces,..."And cities don't provide parking spaces, free or otherwise, so you have to park at a privately owned garage."<br /><br />You keep generalizing from Tokyo, which is really crowded. And almost all crowded, dense cities in the US charge for parking, including publicly owned garages.<br /><br />However, even not charging for problem wouldn't solve that, because in cities that have free or cheap parking during really busy hours, I always find that the spots are all full and people circle for up to hours trying to find a free space.<br /><br />By contrast, out in the suburbs everywhere (Japan and US), even privately owned businesses provide free parking.<br /><br />When there's not a lot of demand (or density), prices are low or free. When there's scarcity, and a lot of demand relative to supply, you have to pay for things somehow. If you don't pay for something with cash, you'll pay for it another way, like with congestion and your time.<br /><br />All you're really saying is that <b>lack of scarcity</b> feels more free than scarcity. Which is true.John Thackerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15269867695937765049noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-80339724184964577152011-08-23T20:12:12.041-04:002011-08-23T20:12:12.041-04:00At least in Tokyo, there are lots of parks with be...At least in Tokyo, there are lots of parks with benches (or other facilities) that don't charge. They're tiny, though, often just walkways along a river (many with cherry trees and real nice for a week in the spring; the one from Yotsuya to Iidabashi for example). The parks that charge are ones with historic overtones; gardens built by daimmyos or emperors or what have you. Still, the free parks tend to be utilitarian (swings for kids) whereas the Boston Public Garden-like maintained parks are charged. The problem with parks in Tokyo is that there's way too little green space due to poor (or no) urban planning; the infinite endless sprawl to the west of Shinjuku is quite horrificly sparse of green. Also, you need to count the Shinto shrines (and some of the Bhuddist temples) as parks, since they are used as such.David Littleboyhttp://www.pbase.com/davidjlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-86544971562454754592011-08-18T06:35:09.349-04:002011-08-18T06:35:09.349-04:00Thank you for referring to my post.
"Japanes...Thank you for referring to my post.<br /><br />"Japanese blogger Himaginary and one of the commenters both point out that the situation I'm describing is really more about Tokyo than about Japan in general."<br /><br />Actually, I just quoted Peter St Onge's comment without verifying. Ditto for Masayuki's liability lawsuits comment. And Peter St Onge is saying that Tokyo *has* plenty of free parks, playgrounds, benches, waterfountains, which I happen to agree. I'm not so sure about the lawsuit thing.<br /><br />P.S.<br />You may find these hatena-bookmark comments also interesting:<br />http://b.hatena.ne.jp/entry?mode=more&url=http%3A%2F%2Fd.hatena.ne.jp%2Fhimaginary%2F20110817%2Fdo_property_rights_increase_freedomhimaginaryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03409531853330541896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-14039037579239437282011-08-17T20:02:07.220-04:002011-08-17T20:02:07.220-04:00Japan is libertarian's dream world. Oh pleeeea...Japan is libertarian's dream world. Oh pleeeease, it's a groupist Disneyland of the mind set in gray concrete.<br /><br />--"pick up their own garbage"<br />Nope. Japan throw anywhere with the knowledge that enslaved housewives and grannies will scoop it up in minutes.<br /><br />--"green spaces are private and gated off"<br />I wish. Japanese spaces are private and gated off and COVERED IN CONCRETE.<br /><br />--"few public benches"<br />Well duh, everyone is supposed to be hurrying to work.<br /><br />///lived here in the Land-o-Concrete(cm) longer than Noahpinion has been alive.Tarohttp://news.3yen.com/noreply@blogger.com