tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post4972558034488241019..comments2024-03-18T22:32:52.802-04:00Comments on Noahpinion: Redistribute wealth? No, redistribute respect.Noah Smithhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09093917601641588575noreply@blogger.comBlogger161125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-48566688726662317972014-02-19T23:32:07.527-05:002014-02-19T23:32:07.527-05:00I wonder if you've been exposed to the work of...I wonder if you've been exposed to the work of the political theorist William Connolly? His work offers interesting perspectives on the type of link that you're suggesting - the ideational and attitudinal antecedents and encouragements for a constellation of social, economic, and political choices. He is also deeply invested in espousing alternative paradigms, both for personal perspectives and for how to arrive at preferable political outcomes.Tas Murahhttp://tasmurah.tasbandoeng.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-84784705386117504632014-01-26T23:47:44.485-05:002014-01-26T23:47:44.485-05:00'every society on Earth has wealth and income ...'every society on Earth has wealth and income distributions that follow some kind of power law'<br /><br />This is almost true- replace with 'every society on Earth with private [or quasi private] ownership of the means of production has wealth and income distributions that follow some kind of power law at the very top of the income distribution' and you are about right.<br /><br />Inequality was not exceptionally low in 'actually existing socialist' societies in comparison for example to Scandinavia, but top tail inequality was very much lower and the Pareto tail is almost certainly absent. The standard lognormal distribution without a Pareto tail [in fact rather there is likely to be some truncation at the top end] will fit the earnings distribution for these countries quite well.<br /><br />The same will apply to for example neolithic societies or even more developed class society where large states are absent [the size of the state sets an upper bound on the amount of wealth that can be accumulated in heritable land rights]. If you want to assign property to kings of small states, then you do get a top tail, but this is more a 'dragon king' regime than a true Pareto top tail. Large pre-capitalist empires with a land owning aristocracy will feature [possible very heavy] Pareto top tails. You need a stable regime of heritable property rights for a Pareto tail to appear.<br />Kieran Lattyhttps://sydney.academia.edu/KieranLattynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-1232009423865310732014-01-25T23:49:40.469-05:002014-01-25T23:49:40.469-05:00I wonder if you've been exposed to the work of...I wonder if you've been exposed to the work of the political theorist William Connolly? His work offers interesting perspectives on the type of link that you're suggesting - the ideational and attitudinal antecedents and encouragements for a constellation of social, economic, and political choices. He is also deeply invested in espousing alternative paradigms, both for personal perspectives and for how to arrive at preferable political outcomes.<br /><br />He, and a number of others (of varying quality), write over at http://contemporarycondition.blogspot.com/<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-43435435328839477582014-01-11T11:40:08.457-05:002014-01-11T11:40:08.457-05:00Capitalist ideological cultists have killed far mo...Capitalist ideological cultists have killed far more than 100 million, so what's your point?Nathanaelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-46395414386321709582014-01-11T11:36:39.740-05:002014-01-11T11:36:39.740-05:00"I want to redistribute enough wealth to save..."I want to redistribute enough wealth to save people from deprivation."<br /><br />You need to redistribute a lot of wealth to do that. Google "living wage" and you'll start realizing how much.<br /><br />Also, what Bill Ellis said. I believe we need to chop off the top of the income distribution. We cannot afford to have people who are powerful enough to buy Congress. <br /><br />Being rich enough to buy Congress needs to be banned, and becoming that rich even after it's been banned needs to be punished by execution, since it's a form of TREASON -- an attempt to take over the government by undemocratic means.Nathanaelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-87491840424710061092014-01-11T11:34:16.078-05:002014-01-11T11:34:16.078-05:00Oh, you're the *son* of my Dad's friend! ...Oh, you're the *son* of my Dad's friend! Got it.Nathanaelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-65939616540221135872014-01-08T02:50:10.274-05:002014-01-08T02:50:10.274-05:00Inequity aversion does not make you communist, Noa...Inequity aversion does not make you communist, Noah. <br />Guillermonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-30928693215998998182014-01-07T13:30:40.285-05:002014-01-07T13:30:40.285-05:00Mark Toma gives Duys' excellent response to yo...Mark Toma gives Duys' excellent response to your post another spot light. <br /><br />Sadly, If the comments are any indication everyone seems to be missing your point.<br /><br />There seems to be almost a universal belief that encouraging respect for hard work is impossible or not helpful.<br />It smacks of a perverse kind of elitism to me--Definitely an unfounded fatalism. Having said that, you made a big mistake by not acknowledging the unbreakable connection between income and respect. <br /><br />But your point is important and it should not be dismissed. Care to fight back? Please?<br /><br />To your point...For example...My Personal experience talking politics with the Conservatives on Catholic side of my family has changed markedly since Pope Francis has pointedly admonished them. Social Norms can be changed. <br />The New Deal and the Great Society programs were championed by influential Catholics. The Pope of course is not the only moral leader. We need other prominent leaders to emulate him. What if Jon Stewart and Steven Colbert took on this theme ala Will Rogers ? What if our politicians acknowledged it the way FDR did ?<br /><br />We are all Moral leaders in our on right. If we take the spirit of your advice, If we demand and show respect for people who work hard, then we can more effectively demand economic compensation for them.<br /><br />Bill Ellisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-28365363706404982812014-01-06T18:58:47.038-05:002014-01-06T18:58:47.038-05:00Ooops ...that is Tim Duy adding to the discussion,...Ooops ...that is Tim Duy adding to the discussion, not Delong... Someday I will learn to read. Bill Ellisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-90035135649031967792014-01-06T18:49:29.281-05:002014-01-06T18:49:29.281-05:00Brad Delong adds to the discussion. He echos Dillo...Brad Delong adds to the discussion. He echos Dillow. <br />I think they both make a mistake. They miss the feedback loop aspect. Inequity is one end of the loop (the most important end IMHO )<br /><br />I believe that without altering material inequality we can, in degree, change the norms towards how we see and treat those who work hard yet don't make much money toward the positive. And that in changing those norms it will make it easier to change policies to address inequities in wealth. <br />There is an element of a negative feedback loop to this issue and it is better to try and effect change on both ends than to just focus on one.<br /><br /><br /><br />http://equitablegrowth.org/2014/01/06/1592/tim-duy-on-r-e-s-p-e-c-t-monday-focus-january-6-2014#more-1592Bill Ellisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-6644847778732439962014-01-06T14:56:53.098-05:002014-01-06T14:56:53.098-05:00Noah: "Too bad paying student loans, medical...Noah: "Too bad paying student loans, medical bills, and rent doesn't earn you respect."<br /><br />I know you are, but what am I?<br /><br />You didn't address his statement.<br />Barry DeCiccohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04735814736387033844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-83580409476505142802014-01-05T17:20:12.015-05:002014-01-05T17:20:12.015-05:00"muh dignity"
This expression usually in..."muh dignity"<br />This expression usually indicates a hipster's confusion and lack of understanding. When confronted with something he can not understand, hipsters mumble "muh dignity" or "muh dignity, muthafucka" This is usually followed by long, angry rant about how their life sucks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-43983922046470455792014-01-05T12:48:24.656-05:002014-01-05T12:48:24.656-05:00"Inequalities between human beings have alway..."Inequalities between human beings have always annoyed me, and I have the strong desire to see them eliminated."<br /><br />Considering that human beings are born biologically unequal, both mentally and physically, the notion that "inequalities between human beings" should be "eliminated" is absurd on its face.<br /><br />Not surprising that all attempts to "eliminate inequalities between human beings" have failed miserably at best, and resulted in genocide at worst. But apparently that doesn't stop your kind from pushing the same agenda again and again, generation after generation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-12239899274282075982014-01-04T23:58:45.278-05:002014-01-04T23:58:45.278-05:00Nice post, lovely even, but meh. Capitalism as it ...Nice post, lovely even, but meh. Capitalism as it occurs in the West aspires to the ideals, but in the meantime, at a rhetorical level, uses dumbed down Darwinian notions and unthinking meritocratic tropes to legitimise economic inequality; the rich are rich because they deserve to be rich and the poor, well, they just didn't work hard enough, take enough risks, aren't capable etc., <br /><br />When that kind of ideology is hegemonic (as per Gramsci), then a lack of respect and all that entails in terms of how people actually feel about themselves, is unavoidable because its intrinsic to the way things are. Saying it'd be nice if that wasn't the case misses the (underlying) point.Primula Monkeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09289100326536298640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-31948523031457528512014-01-04T22:33:17.209-05:002014-01-04T22:33:17.209-05:00Noah, I love many of your posts but this post is a...Noah, I love many of your posts but this post is at best naïve. The elite and rich have systematically orchestrated policies (China membership WTO, lower personal tax rates, corporate tax arbitrage) that benefit them at the expense of the lower class. <br /><br />True respect would be shown in the form of compensation to the losers from globalization by the 1% who gained disproportionately. The historic levels of inequality didn't happened because of God's design or because these individuals lacked character. The game was stacked against them by those more powerful who set the rules. <br />Canada just signed a free trade agreement with Europe where the Canadian government has committed to compensating the losers. That's respect.<br />And yet without embarrassment, Romney who moves most of his assets to the GC gets to run for President and lectures the lower class on borrowing money from their parents to start a business when they can't find a job. This is how much respect the party of the wealthy has for lower class. By your post -as long as the Koch brother's say a nice word to us as they toss the keys of their Maserati to park - democracy will run along smoothly. Karl Pinnohttp://www.economicpresence.com/paradox-found.htmlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-72072765209120337272014-01-03T17:30:52.811-05:002014-01-03T17:30:52.811-05:00Noah,
You've totally confused being respectful...Noah,<br />You've totally confused being respectful and being polite... and that applies to your linguistic analysis as well..... "san" is a polite form of address not an honorific form.<br /><br />And BTW, you're whole post is totally off. I've lived in Japan for 30 years in and I've never read such an inaccurate depiction of the place. No flashy cars? Are you kidding me. Have you ever looked inside a condo garage in central Tokyo?<br /><br />Japan is one of the most class conscious societies on the planet!<br /><br />You also seem to know absolutely nothing about sushi preparation.Dan Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01354902389242286031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-83674173538161441832014-01-03T14:50:50.389-05:002014-01-03T14:50:50.389-05:00I share your love for Japan and longing for more r...I share your love for Japan and longing for more respect for many who are now invisible. May I recommend Murray Milner's book, "Freaks, Geeks, and Cool Kids," which explains his "general theory of status relations" as applied to American high schools. Milner is a sociologist who did his doctoral work in India and Bangladesh, then came back to UVA to teach. Having worked out a theory of why otherwise-rational people would develop a caste system, he went to study the artificial communities we call high schools and found that kids form a natural "status-based society" which follows most of the same rules that Hindu caste systems have developed. For purposes of your post, the most interesting finding was that status is not so much a "fixed pie" that can only be divided so many ways as a "layer cake" that can put people at the "top of the bottom." The unfortunately implication of this for your argument in our society is that we maximize respect by dividing into subgroups--"Duck Dynasty" gets tremendous respect from Redneck-Americans, while Al Sharpton gets respect from some African-Americans.<br /><br />What may be difficult is to maximize respect AND social cohesion at the same time. Scott W. Somervillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17312154442915574915noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-56700445585572189942014-01-03T13:59:16.854-05:002014-01-03T13:59:16.854-05:00"I suddenly wondered if we could get American..."I suddenly wondered if we could get Americans to start calling burger-flippers 'sir'."<br />Why wonder? Do it!<br />Has something changed in America? Youbetcha. When we threw off the chains of aristocracy in the 18th century, the new Americans did not stop using 'Sir', they started using 'Sir' for everyone. When I was young (20th not 18th century) I was taught, and learned, that I grew up in a world where everyone, reguardless of station in life, was due respect. You could lose it through dishonesty or disrespect, but not based on how much you made or how you earned it.<br />I believe that we have very largely lost this, and all in the name of democracy.<br />I would also have to point out that your assumptions about libertarians being champions of disrespecting losers shows a significant degree of disrespect. I and other libertarians I know strongly feel that all honest work is due respect. Dishonest work, not so much. Riches without work, not so much. Highest respect for those who achieve much through hard work, compassion for those unable to work, and the leftover for those who don't care so much for work. All with the understanding that it is hard (wrong?) to judge. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01871309990888480068noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-41405899024710462842014-01-03T13:20:03.246-05:002014-01-03T13:20:03.246-05:00...disparities of wealth are distasteful. You stat...<i>...disparities of wealth are distasteful.</i> You state this as a self-evident axiom, but I think it needs a bit more justification than that. For example, let's ask what's the maximum permissible level of economic inequality in society, expressed as a ratio of the lowest income to the highest income?<br /><br />Now defend your choice. Explain how it applies to movie stars, sports figures, and other celebrities. Show all assumptions and steps in your calculations.<br /><br />For extra credit, address these points: Does this target ratio ever change? How does society know when it's time to change it, and in which direction, and by how much? Be explicit.<br /><br />Get-an-A-for-the-term question: How would society achieve and maintain your income ratio without causing a blood-soaked civil insurrection? Be specific.<br /><br />Fuzzy terms such as "fair share" and the like will not be accepted in any answer unless its meaning is exactly specified in numbers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-48807842639150479222014-01-03T07:42:01.275-05:002014-01-03T07:42:01.275-05:00A pleasant thought Noah. One can give away free ut...A pleasant thought Noah. One can give away free utils simply by being kind to others.isomorphismeshttp://isomorphismes.tumblr.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-88202889975653859382014-01-03T01:04:25.180-05:002014-01-03T01:04:25.180-05:00My father used to tell me not to attach my identit...My father used to tell me not to attach my identity to my job (all too easy to do, especially in the early part of one's life when we don't have the education/skills/connections to get a really well paying job that satisfies our passions and helps the world)... but to see the big picture. He said all work has dignity. It takes all of us to make the world go around. He told me the story of an observer walking through a construction site: one person is skillfully and quickly building a brick wall, laying the bricks, scraping the cement, perfectly laying the wall... the observer asked, what's your job? I'm a mason, the man answered. I'm the craftsman who makes sure the walls are strong and sound and look good. Walking on another man was expertly connecting wires and weaving them through holes in steel girders. What is your job, the observer asked. I am the electrician, the man said. I'll make sure that the lights go on and everything works like it should. Walking on a man was handling large sheets of glass and setting them in place... What's your job? I am the glazier. I select, cut and install all the windows in the building. Like setting lenses in the eyes of the building. The observer saw a man picking up trash, sweeping slag and scrap out from under the glazier and the mason and the electrician - keeping the way clear and safe. What is your job, the observer asked? I'm helping to build the cathedral. Moral: Every job has meaning. Every job has a place in the big machine of this world. We are all helping in our way. It takes us all. Give yourself and others a break, have some respect.Aprilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13811069213371989110noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-17988334039509671112014-01-02T18:36:04.061-05:002014-01-02T18:36:04.061-05:00Bang. On.
One of the people I respect the most ar...Bang. On.<br /><br />One of the people I respect the most around here is actually a butcher at the supermarket. Youngish guy, clearly into it and knows his stuff inside and out, fixes problems when customer tell him, and I keep seeing him run interesting promotions and other innovative activities.<br /><br />I don't actually know how much this guy makes, but I'm confident that it's under 50k, and suspect that it's well under. Still, I'd switch him with 70%+ of executives making 3 times what he does, and would be willing to bet that results would eventually improve if we did. That's the guy I'll point out to my son and say "I hope you learn from his example - be like that." That, and letting the person in question know, personally, that you appreciate what they do and how.<br /><br />Any of us can do this with the people around us, of course, and it's an important basic step toward reclaiming that equality of respect. We don't have to wait for larger forces to change, which is good Bill, because there are a lot of them. Beyond the economic system, think of the cultural materialist/loser messages pervasive in rap videos, as just one of many examples that won't magically disappear. If we wait for them to change, we'll wait forever.<br /><br />We'll still have to do something about the Culture of Looting that's endemic in finance, business, and "public service". We'll still have our other fish to fry. But we start by revaluing the terms of respect within our reach.<br /><br />As more of us do, we may even find that it's easier to get at some of those larger issues. What a society respects can, and has, changed material foundations.Joehttp://nonsa.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-68172472050533656872014-01-02T14:14:48.283-05:002014-01-02T14:14:48.283-05:00Maybe because the bus driver can't support his...Maybe because the bus driver can't support his family? But his dad the bus driver could? Bill Ellisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-86499479439948956482014-01-02T12:52:20.455-05:002014-01-02T12:52:20.455-05:00Be a little generous - wouldn't you all have j...Be a little generous - wouldn't you all have joined in during 1917 if job was fairly murderous, family was sick and dying, etc? There's a raft of films. The bureaucrats and despots you worry about are outside this dreamscape. There is a natural tendency to wish wrongs righted. Read Adam Smith's Theory of Moral Sentimants to get some perspective. And, don't cast stones. What were _you_ doing in 1970? Ronald Calitrihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07206853993777529429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-19296480977173280012014-01-02T12:06:18.799-05:002014-01-02T12:06:18.799-05:00Chris Dillow says... "I agree. However, I fea...Chris Dillow says... "I agree. However, I fear that Noah is under-estimating the extent to which inequality of respect is endogenous. It arises out of the forces that generate and sustain inequalities of power and wealth. I'm thinking of inter-related mechanisms here:"<br />http://stumblingandmumbling.typepad.com/stumbling_and_mumbling/2013/12/respect.htmlBill Ellisnoreply@blogger.com