tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post5292342164128528311..comments2024-03-18T22:32:52.802-04:00Comments on Noahpinion: Why conservatives can't get people to work hardNoah Smithhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09093917601641588575noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-74618131527435466142011-12-06T15:48:07.796-05:002011-12-06T15:48:07.796-05:00Plenty of conservatives have undermined Cowen'...<i>Plenty of conservatives have undermined Cowen's hard-work-and-discipline bloc by saying that success in life is all due to natural differences in ability.</i><br /><br />Carol Dweck has done 40 years of research on this fixed ability mindset versus the growth mindset. Those with the fixed mindset, like the conservatives referenced in the quote, don’t think in terms of how to make things better; they judge and categorize and seek control. They don’t expect people to improve. And they don’t want equality. They want to see themselves as better than others.<br /><br />"Hard work and discipline" are <i><b>learned</b></i> values and skills. Mark Thoma posted an <a href="http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2011/03/a-post-racial-strategy-for-improving-skills-to-promote-equality.html#comment-6a00d83451b33869e2014e60018625970c" rel="nofollow">article by James Heckman</a> that emphasized this point--learned skills matter. He describes a successful program that used random assignment and had long-term follow-up of 40 years.<br /><br />Author Jonah Lehrer has written many times on the primary importance of self-control and grit, and how they can be improved. In <a href="http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/09/focusing-on-focus/" rel="nofollow">one article</a> he says, <br /><br /><i>But here’s the good news: Executive function can be significantly improved, especially if interventions begin at an early age. In the current issue of Science, Adele Diamond, a neuroscientist at the University of British Columbia, reviews the activities that can reliably boost these essential mental skills.<br />The list is surprisingly varied, revolving around activities that are both engaging and challenging, such as computer exercises involving short-term memory, tae-kwon-do, yoga and difficult board games. Dr. Diamond also notes that certain school curricula, such as Montessori and Tools for the Mind, have also been shown to consistently increase executive function.<br />. . .Given the age in which we live, it makes no sense to obsess over the memorization of facts that can be looked up on a smartphone. It’s not enough to drill kids in arithmetic and hope that they develop delayed gratification by accident. We need to teach the skills of executive function directly and creatively.</i>bfurutanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-71584048398023774992011-12-05T21:41:44.207-05:002011-12-05T21:41:44.207-05:00You want discipline and hard work? I think Jevons...You want discipline and hard work? I think Jevons laid the foundations 140 years ago:<br /><br />http://sites.google.com/site/lukelea2/whatprofitit%3FLuke Leahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11290760894780619646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-7862466524763704572011-11-21T15:21:38.448-05:002011-11-21T15:21:38.448-05:00I don't get "days off," because I am...I don't get "days off," because I am the mother of a special needs child. I don't own a home, I rent with my husband. I don't hold one full-time job, because I never know when either my daughter or my mother with Alzheimer's will need me. I work two part-time jobs instead, and tutor on the side. This also means no paid vacations or holidays, and no health insurance except for my kid on SCHIP. My husband has worked retail for the past few years, looking for something better. But to conservatives, it doesn't matter! I made "poor choices" by having a child! My husband made poor choices by--well, there had to have been some poor choices or we'd have Real Money and God would bless us! Good people don't live in apartments, and they don't "freeload" off SCHIP and the public school "special ed industry!" (That last is a direct quote from an elderly dude who thinks that kids like mine "dumb down" education.) People like us will never, never, *never* be able to work hard enough to please conservatives. That's a big enough disincentive to work right there.RachelWnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-10188168973088223382011-11-21T07:47:54.560-05:002011-11-21T07:47:54.560-05:00@Noah, I was interested to see the culture of pove...@Noah, I was interested to see the culture of poverty argument in your essay. There seems to be a lot of truth in that. As for the "mix results" of liberalism... the ones you mentioned all seem pretty successful to me. I think you left out ending child labor.<br /><br />I think there's a problem with your statement here: "But the basic idea was sound: not just to give people handouts, but to make them feel as if they deserved what they were getting because of hard work." I am not sure I would subscribe to that statement. Handouts are fine and dandy. The world would be a lot better if everyone had health care, gratis (yes, someone has to pay for it, but surely it can be out of general revenues). It's very nice that everyone seems to feel that people have to "deserve" help, but it can mean that those who are in a poverty trap may not be assisted sufficiently to raise them out of the cycle(s) of poverty.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14235846531323511190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-4516681946281640282011-11-21T03:22:40.071-05:002011-11-21T03:22:40.071-05:00Hey, if you're still in town (Tokyo) when you&...Hey, if you're still in town (Tokyo) when you're done, I'll buy you a beer, too.David Littleboyhttp://www.pbase.com/davidjlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-38406029491504353492011-11-20T18:09:09.766-05:002011-11-20T18:09:09.766-05:00The inherent fallacy in the conservative argument ...The inherent fallacy in the conservative argument about hardwork and values is that large numbers of people are unemployed because they have to be in order for the system to operate "efficiently." At present economists peg that number at about 5% of those actively seeking employment. Full employment either produces escalating inflation (as employers keep raising prices to match the upward pressure on the wages they have to pay) or dramatically reduced or no profits. In practice, it produces inflation as nobody has ever tried forgoing profits to achieve full employment. Central to the logic of capitalism is the sanctity of the right of capitalists (investors) to extract rents.DrDickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06512004651717336194noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-18907566956710624912011-11-20T08:38:11.240-05:002011-11-20T08:38:11.240-05:00"Get to be 40 and 50 on crap food and no heal..."Get to be 40 and 50 on crap food and no health insurance and you have a good chance of some very serious consequences. Get to be an unhealthy 40, 50, 60 and lose your job, "<br /><br />Important points - take a 40-year old person. What's the odds of losing their job over a decade? Especially decades like we've been having. I'd say pretty good. <br /><br />Given that age discrimination starts at 40, and that employer favor hiring the employed, and that we have too few job openings, a 40-year old have to survive 27 years in a net negative job market to hit Social Security and Medicare. And that's while taking care of children, who will probably be boomeranging back from their own problems.Barry DeCiccohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04735814736387033844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-59429437456438963982011-11-19T21:38:44.152-05:002011-11-19T21:38:44.152-05:00See also this on very important article on the rec...See also this on very important article on the recently discovered Epigenetics (the actual activation and expression of genes due to the environment, nutrition, etc.):<br /><br />http://www.tnr.com/book/review/ultimate-mystery-inheritance-epigenetics-richard-francisRichard H. Serlinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09824966626830758801noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-67494457365769335162011-11-19T21:28:13.471-05:002011-11-19T21:28:13.471-05:00Outstanding post, overall, but there are some issu...Outstanding post, overall, but there are some issues. Example:<br /><br />"For another thing, being poor in America, or any rich country, is just not that bad. Even if you work at McDonald's, you can probably afford plenty of junk food, a heated room, a comfy old couch, a CRT TV, some old video games, a cheap used car, beer, and marijuana, and you can probably find people to have sex with you. Not exactly the Ritz, but not exactly the pangs of privation either!"<br /><br />A young single man's view. Have children on a McDonalds wage and things get far harder, and the crime of poor neighborhoods really gets to be an issue. Get to be 40 and 50 on crap food and no health insurance and you have a good chance of some very serious consequences. Get to be an unhealthy 40, 50, 60 and lose your job, maybe end up homeless, and see everything completely fall apart. It's very different when you aren't young and single. Youth is just an amazing resource. <br /><br />But again, overall, outstanding. A comment on this:<br /><br />"Conservatives need to look in the mirror and ask themselves: "Do we really want people to work hard and be disciplined? Or do we just say that in order to keep the peasants from getting restless, when deep down we believe that it's all about good genes?""<br /><br />It's way way more than genes, as science is really finding out now. It's how your genes are developed and activated. Nutrition (and I mean fruits and vegetables and breast milk, instead of macaroni and cheese, cookies, and burgers) and parenting and environment in childhood are absolutely humongous, especially in the first two years for ability and character as an adult. Great article on this:<br /><br />http://www.tnr.com/article/economy/magazine/97268/the-two-year-windowRichard H. Serlinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09824966626830758801noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-50909977407670590042011-11-19T08:46:06.843-05:002011-11-19T08:46:06.843-05:00"For another thing, being poor in America, or..."For another thing, being poor in America, or any rich country, is just not that bad."<br /><br />During the Iraq War, as things fell into h*ll, the right switched from 'everything's great!' to 'not as bad as Saddam'.Barry DeCiccohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04735814736387033844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-57110280220347691292011-11-19T00:14:02.087-05:002011-11-19T00:14:02.087-05:00'working harder' may impress
but has most ...'working harder' may impress<br />but has most to do greater<br />rate of exploitation, of providing more surplus value to capital's<br />owners.<br />Increasing labor intensity can help mitigate against a falling mass of profit and socially decrepit means of production but more rapidly wears the worker out.<br /><br />motivation is contradictded by the desire and/or need for greater profit. The employee is 'trapped' until he/she/they take the matter of control into their own hands.juanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09891629364963900116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-64511891793296743752011-11-18T09:32:20.936-05:002011-11-18T09:32:20.936-05:00Bob,
I'm not poor, and I'm lucky enough t...Bob,<br /><br />I'm not poor, and I'm lucky enough to say I never have been. I did do a stint in homelessness law, though, in which I hung out with and interviewed a lot of homeless people. I don't think these are the poor folks Noah was talking about, because they have pretty much nothing to their names. Why are they so poor, and now homeless? Many of them with their children? There are as many reasons as there are individuals, but this is what I saw, primarily:<br /><br />(1) Lack of a support network. A lot of us can be unemployed for a short time or make a single bad financial decision, but we have family and friends to help us get over the rough patches - a short-term loan from a parent or sibling, a couch to crash on for a week, etc. Those folks who end up truly destitute often didn't have that support structure in place, so when they fell, they fell hard. And then, <br />(2) It becomes a cycle. With no home and no income, getting a job is far, far easier said than done. How can these folks give an address on a job application? Clean up nicely for the interview? Let alone explain their current situation to an employer who has their pick of employees. Being jobless quickly becomes being unemployable. Without social programs to give these folks a chance to break that cycle - and virtually all of them told me that what they really wanted was job training and a chance at employment - they can never break that cycle. And finally<br />(3) Mental and physical disability. A hugely disproportionate fraction of the indigent population is schizophrenic, and many more are amputees, tuberculosis sufferers, etc., who can't afford treatment, and so couldn't possibly spend the time and energy, let alone money, necessary to try to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps.<br /><br />Again, I'm pretty sure these are not the folks Noah was talking about, and by and large, poverty in the United States is luxury compared to poverty or even a decent income level in much of the world. That destitution I'm discussing is a tiny, tiny fraction of our poor population, and it is a very different sort of problem. But when you look at the causes of that problem, Noah's point still applies with equal if not stronger force: these people's problems cannot be solved by telling them that they should work harder. They need help before they can possibly start trying to help themselves.rosebriarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02229537505859471832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-33893059918070892172011-11-18T07:29:20.225-05:002011-11-18T07:29:20.225-05:00econcicuit: "In my experience, however, it i...econcicuit: "In my experience, however, it is not the case that end goals are the most important evidence of success. Rather they are concerned with process. In conservative terminology people should be allowed to live with their mistakes and failures not b/c it is fair or instills certain values but because it is natural. The result is just because the process is just, not because the results are optimal."<br /><br />First, the conservatives seem to be able to live with insane levels of corporate subsidy and crony capitalistm; this suggests that their propaganda is just that.<br /><br />Second, I remember when these things were billed as increasing economic growth. Even now, they use terms like 'job creators'. And they always have and always will say that liberal policies are bad for the economy. <br /><br /><br />What happened, of course, was that the promised economic benefits never materialized for the bottom 90-odd percent of the population, so they stopped mentioning that - about old things; they still *predict* using the same old lies.Barry DeCiccohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04735814736387033844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-41656444602385054702011-11-17T21:32:41.820-05:002011-11-17T21:32:41.820-05:00Hey Bob, I'm kinda poor. Less poor than I use...Hey Bob, I'm kinda poor. Less poor than I used to be, I guess.Jolly Greenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09631364433925344569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-50018907394659607002011-11-17T20:28:44.208-05:002011-11-17T20:28:44.208-05:00With all due respect, your post and most of the co...With all due respect, your post and most of the comments are a demonstration, if one were needed, that being determines consciousness and that you and your commenters have no real idea of what it is like to be poor in America.Bob Hallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02490630655801772504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-29774443787122228432011-11-17T17:48:45.320-05:002011-11-17T17:48:45.320-05:00"For another thing, being poor in America, or..."For another thing, being poor in America, or any rich country, is just not that bad."<br /><br />I don't know about that. Have you tried being poor and in the low-status, low-job-security workforce? It sucks. It sucks much worse than being a poor student.<br /><br />I'm trying to figure out what is meant by the Henry Ford reference...<br />-WillAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-61007520607559999082011-11-17T16:23:40.329-05:002011-11-17T16:23:40.329-05:00I disagree that conservatives value hard work. I ...I disagree that conservatives value hard work. I think conservatives value wealth/property. Hard work is just a means for (low-income or middle-class) people to achieve wealth. The truly rich don't have to work, and historically many of them not only didn't want to, but considered it beneath them. <br /><br />Punitive taxes like the estate tax or other wealth-redistributing programs that would then require those (formerly) rich people work in order to reattain that wealth are *NOT* popular among the elite conservative base. A conservative class that truly believed in the moral and social good of work would not support such a gross inheritance system. <br /><br />But conservatives who do work, because they have to, I don't think really value work either. Who among us wouldn't like the option of work, rather than the requirement? I see most middle-class conservatives as people who were able to eek out some small amount of financial security in a harsh capitalist system, and don't want anyone else -- especially anyone who has worked slightly less, or whose labor and choices have not resulted in as much success -- to benefit from the fruits of their labor. <br /><br />I do agree there's a big difference between positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement, but if you've been watching the Republican debates, conservative voters not only support the removal of helpful programs and safety nets, but really want people to suffer the absolute worst consequences of their behavior. Maybe I'm selling them short, but there seems to be a real delight in seeing other people fail and suffer, if the "let him die!" folks speak for the mainstream.deep6noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-12806868338070130252011-11-17T16:09:29.708-05:002011-11-17T16:09:29.708-05:00Noah, you still don't get it. No two public e...Noah, you <a href="http://pragmatarianism.blogspot.com/2011/11/ostrich-response-to-pragmatarianism.html" rel="nofollow">still don't get it</a>. No two public expenditures will produce the exact same benefit to society. It's fine if you want to motivate people to work hard...but you should be forced to consider which other public goods you would be willing to forgo in order to fund your particular brand of publicly sponsored motivation. <br /><br />All public goods have opportunity costs...not just "bad" ones like <a href="http://pragmatarianism.blogspot.com/2011/11/opportunity-cost-of-war.html" rel="nofollow">war</a>. Allowing taxpayers to directly allocate their taxes is the only way to guarantee the maximum benefit to the country as a whole.<br /><br />Figure out why it wouldn't be a good idea to elect 535 personal shoppers to purchase Christmas presents for everybody and you'll figure out what's wrong with the current system...and what's right with pragmatarianism. <br /><br />Interestingly enough...there are several levels of giving in the Jewish charity law...ranked according to their degree of righteousness. The least righteous way to give is to give begrudgingly and the most righteous way to give is to give in a way that helps the recipient to become self-sufficient. <br /><br />Everybody wants people to be self-reliant...but no two people will respond exactly alike to the same method of motivation. Taxpayers that value helping people to become self-reliant should be able to directly allocate their taxes to the government organizations that they believe produces the best results.Xerographicahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14978832439622230018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-22201581854099491402011-11-17T15:11:52.316-05:002011-11-17T15:11:52.316-05:00How do get people to work harder? You can lower t...How do get people to work harder? You can lower their wages and they will work both harder and longer.<br /><br />Or you can lower their hours and tie wages to output.<br /><br />Personally I prefer option number two. It gives more people jobs and a share of the gains of new labor-saving technologies.Luke Leahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11290760894780619646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-87341893517201606042011-11-17T14:17:22.464-05:002011-11-17T14:17:22.464-05:00Regarding the "Marxist creed" from the g...Regarding the "Marxist creed" from the gospels and specifically Matthew 6:24:<br /><br />I like to call the contemporary Republican party the "God & Mammon coalition", because it is dedicated to serving both God and Mammon in direct contradiction to Jesus' teaching.<br /><br />It manages this by 'serving' God and Mammon in very different ways, summarized by the slogan: "God talk for the poor, bucket-loads of cash for the rich."Sethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16486234948199900568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-83857093850243017622011-11-17T14:13:41.556-05:002011-11-17T14:13:41.556-05:00"everybody wins" sounds nice, but it'..."everybody wins" sounds nice, but it's important to define "win". What socialists might sensibly aim for is that:<br /><br />1. everyone who makes a decent effort can earn enough to get by and <br />2. the amount earned should rise in rough proportion to the effort<br /><br />Capitalist 'hard liners' are correct that people are not equal in the sense of being 'interchangeable'. We are all unique, and not only in touchy-feely cultural ways. We are (at least nearly) unique as economic agents as well. Equality is only a formal legal fiction which expresses an ideal of (Rawlsian) fairness. <br /><br />But a winner-take-all system which doesn't provide an 'incentive schedule' that has any slots besides "#1 best in the world" and "loser" won't motivate anyone but the handful of the likely contenders for #1.<br /><br />It's a measure of how far our political culture has shifted rightward that "socialism" now can mean as little as "having a healthy middle class in our capitalist economy".Sethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16486234948199900568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-4837696110685396752011-11-17T13:43:04.531-05:002011-11-17T13:43:04.531-05:00@RJ -- re: immigration
It is difficult to compar...@RJ -- re: immigration <br /><br />It is difficult to compare immigration between European countries and the US, because a large part of our immigration is "EU-internal", comparable in some ways to interstate migration in the US. In other ways (e.g. differences in language/culture) it could be compared to proper inmigration to the US. The level of foreign-born residents is about the same (14.4 per cent in Sweden, 12.5 percent in the US). So, no, I don't think that immigration is a major factor here - as long as integration policy works. (we do have problems with integration policy and practice, but where is that not the case? Too many bad feedback loops, is my guess)<br /><br />But population size, yes, that could be an argument against designing a federal system of any social insurance. The social insurance systems of scandinavia have evolved from local systems, growing as the scope of solidarity increased. <br /><br />Our current government are hard at work chipping away at our social insurance systems, feeding suspicion of fraud, blaming the system for creating laziness, while at the same time decreasing the effort spent to make people employable. That strikes me as a self-fulfilling prophecy. <br /><br />If you want people to work, it is an obligation of society to help make people employable. The way to make people employable is not to make them desperate for <i>any job</i> if you want a prosperous, high productivity economy. <br /><br />But I'd prefer to be "middle income" in a rich, egalitarian society, that the richest person in a poor, unequal society. My social democratic stripes are showing...Appolonianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-48045536371980545202011-11-17T13:39:17.207-05:002011-11-17T13:39:17.207-05:00The US Pledge of Allegiance was written by a Chris...The US Pledge of Allegiance was written by a Christian socialist - a Baptist minister, one Francis Bellamy - as a statement of socialist conviction.<br /><br />Albert Einstein was a committed socialist, and was as concerned about capitalism as he was about nuclear weapons.<br /><br />The US Postal Service is socialism - a public-owned institution entirely a market operation funded entirely by sales.<br /><br />WalMart is not socialism - it does central economic planning on a global scale, and is the largest retail institution in the world.<br /><br />Motivations, not mechanisms like markets and central planning - are what distinguish capitalism and socialism.<br /><br />I'll leave you alone now. You don't need distractions.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-23813743045438763572011-11-17T13:39:03.950-05:002011-11-17T13:39:03.950-05:00I'm a very poor person. I'm raising kids ...I'm a very poor person. I'm raising kids and have sent some off to college only to have them graduate with $20,000 plus in loans, others couldn't keep going through school, and didn't graduate with $10,000 in loans.<br /><br />Poor is only 1 pair of tennis shoes in Oregon in winter. Having permanent teeth pulled for caveties at age 10. Owning 2 pair of socks.<br /><br />Please, just once, use real numbers. The only way to defeat Cowan is with numbers. 2 people, working 30 hrs. each per week, can't afford 1 bedroom apartment, food and bus pass. Can't live within 1 hour each way commute of nursing home aide job or McDonalds job. Have to take day off work to get food stamps.<br /><br />No matter what wonders happen in the future, Tyler is gonna buy groceries, stocked by min. wage workers, park cars patrolled by min. wage workers, go to movies ushered by min wage workers. Tyler needs to explain why my kids go without socks so he can watch movies and pick out produce and avoid wondering if anyone is feeding great auntie.<br /><br />Make society work for min. wage workers. Anyone who shows up should get enough to live on. The rest will sort itself out.<br /><br />Most talk of slackers isn't acknowledging they are charity cases of other employed people. Working parents don't get to live in someone's basement.<br /><br />Make these people talk about REAL STUFF. OTHERWISE YOU'RE JUST WASTING EVERYONE'S TIME AND LETTING THEM LIE.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-45298486399139764482011-11-17T13:23:41.881-05:002011-11-17T13:23:41.881-05:00As for destroying the economy - 1929? Today?
Get...As for destroying the economy - 1929? Today?<br /><br />Get socialism right, Noah - it's not about atheist authoritarianism and central economic planning, it's about public ownership - public as in democratic - and take another look. Ask a modern socialist what socialist is, and they're likely to say "economic democracy."<br /><br />Socialism saved the world economy in 1929. Agree? No?<br /><br />"... life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."<br /><br />That's socialism, Noah. Call it "the one-drop rule" applied to the US, unlike how it's applied by capitalists. Mixed economy - sure, but don't just ignore the parts that are socialism.<br /><br />An aside about money. Of the US bills of $100 and less, how many of the presidents depicted on them were slaveowners? Answer: all but one.<br /><br />Capitalism and our legacy of slavery were one and the same. And part of that legacy persists, in more ways than one.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com