tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post6009876370523021917..comments2024-03-28T03:16:14.104-04:00Comments on Noahpinion: Are libertarians ready to embrace a broader notion of freedom?Noah Smithhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09093917601641588575noreply@blogger.comBlogger94125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-56757850404560493102014-08-19T05:02:01.448-04:002014-08-19T05:02:01.448-04:00Why do you say the UK is generally less free?Why do you say the UK is generally less free?donniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13809052984282157093noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-20626324819203182432014-08-13T03:45:50.239-04:002014-08-13T03:45:50.239-04:00Except it doesn't work. Read a bit of history....Except it doesn't work. Read a bit of history. What you are talking about is called "tribalism". The movement towards a more tolerant society required a good deal of political activity and legal intervention.reasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10958786975015285323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-13233258385302413312014-08-09T12:22:54.637-04:002014-08-09T12:22:54.637-04:00"...the ability to express your individuality..."...the ability to express your individuality without having people ostracize you "<br /><br />This is something that libertarians get right. In this case, it's Noah who falls into simplistic adolescent fantasy, while the libertarians provide the more sophisticated, mature reasoning.<br /><br />The state should not be the sole arbiter of morality. As a result, because libertarians are so far beyond Noah in their reasoning, then libertarians understand that people are social creatures.<br /><br />And as such, people have to option to shame and ostracize to enforce social norms. People also have the right to self-select into different social groups with different norms and standards. This is civil society, and it's how a free society maintains it's moralities. And the proliferation of social groups and competing norms also yields more freedom for the individual, who can join a social group that appeals to them more, or simply have more space to maintain their individuality.<br /><br />Noah seems to recognize none of this, which puts Noah far behind the libertarians in sophistication and depth. But with enough time and effort, I think Noah can eventually catch up. Keithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17074785490924714533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-89295391146397196772014-08-08T20:01:29.049-04:002014-08-08T20:01:29.049-04:00As a pathologically introverted person, I've a...As a pathologically introverted person, I've always thought that liberalism (or even full-on democratic socialism) would suit my needs far more than libertarianism. Except in the above example of going out into the wilderness, which is obviously impractical, to take care of yourself inevitably requires quite a lot of social interaction. If you want to make a living, you have to deal with bosses, or if you're self employed, suppliers and customers who will have various expectations of you. Often, people have to "network" just to find jobs in the first place. Market relationships at their ideal are emotionless detached relationships of goods in exchange for currency, but that is not how the labor market works, and it's hard to blame government for that. And if you depend on charity, things are even worse. People who make friends and are connected with society are at more of an advantage than people who keep to themselves.<br /><br />But in a "colorless sterile world where government controls 80% of the economy," (and I'd agree with Joe that that's a stupid extreme to jump to) there's no need for all that uncomfortable intimacy. The government just provides the services, and all you have to do is maybe fill out some paperwork. Obviously such a world would be problematic in other ways, but the idea that it inherently crushes the individual just seems to misunderstand what being an individual is all about.<br /><br />The problem with rugged individualism is that many people are not rugged in the slightest. True individualism needs to let wimps be individualistic too.UserGoogolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07451696693372858067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-32706753081993459662014-08-08T15:59:20.790-04:002014-08-08T15:59:20.790-04:00Cs62 - not sure that I follow this - are you sayin...Cs62 - not sure that I follow this - are you saying that no co-operation can take place between people without government? If 2 people do a deal with each other do they need government to oversee the deal or something? Or are you saying that social norms and conventions act so as to ensure fairness and that's the same as the govt?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-7595220071838714372014-08-08T15:40:36.279-04:002014-08-08T15:40:36.279-04:00Hey Joe chill - we all want the same things right....Hey Joe chill - we all want the same things right. Maybe not, I don't know but seriously - it's your world not mine, I just live in it. 20 years time - government will be larger than it is today as %age of GDP - no question. Esp. healthcare and welfare. It's all good for you guys. As NS put it the war has been won - who cares what some libertarian thinks. We definitely isn't gettin' our hands on the levers of power.<br />Mark my words - 20 years - govt spending higher as a %age of GDP healthcare, welfare, definitely, public sector pay and pensions, much, much higher. Taxes, regulation, deficits, debt, etc all up. <br />If I were you I'd be cracking open the champagne already - what are you waiting for?Seannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-43185530112033314622014-08-08T15:23:53.049-04:002014-08-08T15:23:53.049-04:00I agree with Cs62 that education and infrastructur...I agree with Cs62 that education and infrastructure are 2 of the most important functions of govt.. Roads, etc are classic public goods and would be under-supplied by a private market. Education provides most of it's benefits to the individual themselves (consider the increasing returns to education as a prime driver of inequality), but overall unlike a lot of libertarians I think that there is a public good component to education. Think of it as a countries R&D budget.<br />But still - I don't draw the same conclusions.<br />1st off - I reckon most inheritees are net consumers of wealth than creators of new - but I could be wrong.<br />"Take advantage of" - this statement assumes a priori that there is no consumer or labour surplus to what a rich person does. I mean silicon valley folks are rich because we like their...stuff. I couldn't do any of what they do at all. So I'm certainly better off and I'm not sure if I really care what a doctor earns (the largest constituency of the 1%) and what advantages they had so long as they be doing good healthcare. <br />Not everyone in Bill Gates class is a billionaire.<br />If all of this wealth creation stuff is so obvious and just appropriated by monopolists then why doesn't the govt just produce all of the istuff, and angioplasty suites, and fast food, and whatever, years before some dumb luck businessman stumbles across it.<br />Does the public sector work for free - no they get 8% more than the private sector - not including dem pension plans!<br />If I get a crap education, there are potholes in the road, I don't get the medical care I need, and I get mugged , do I or my parents get a refund on all the taxes paid?<br />PS - I suppose I do sort of care what a Dr. earns - depends what's wrong with me or my kids.Seannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-56535626667095524472014-08-08T14:48:44.009-04:002014-08-08T14:48:44.009-04:00Fair points. But how much does the NFL commissione...Fair points. But how much does the NFL commissioner and organisation cost the teams - and who's accountable to whom - but I'm nitpicking a bit, you make a good point. <br />Fair comment about commons property rights - they too are real, valid and legitimate as you say. Hey, if the government spends it's time on managing the commons and co-ordinating housing policy, transport policy, energy policy, and agricultural policy, then sign me up!Seannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-26994374190082069562014-08-08T10:13:21.085-04:002014-08-08T10:13:21.085-04:00"the tragedy of the commons" isn't t..."the tragedy of the commons" isn't the threat that national parks (and other lands) are protected from. It's from private ownership, development and exploitation.brgriffihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10184697440532324934noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-1504348660077793902014-08-08T10:06:59.676-04:002014-08-08T10:06:59.676-04:00Hey now let's not needlessly disparage wildern...Hey now let's not needlessly disparage wilderness areas.brgriffihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10184697440532324934noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-76780799974151146992014-08-08T00:17:00.798-04:002014-08-08T00:17:00.798-04:00Not true. Maybe a small handful of the more fring...Not true. Maybe a small handful of the more fringe and hyperbolic ones struggle with that level of complexity, but I'm confident the vast majority completely understand there are almost infinite points along the "spectrum."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-13897102266445639412014-08-08T00:14:39.870-04:002014-08-08T00:14:39.870-04:00@Maximum Liberty,
Must be nice to chug a nice big...@Maximum Liberty,<br /><br />Must be nice to chug a nice big fat glass of straw man every morning. Must be nice to keep patting yourself on the back with these cute missives you've managed to invent in this little echo chamber. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-78853666548049503652014-08-07T23:35:58.395-04:002014-08-07T23:35:58.395-04:00Anton: Well stated.
Anonymous: Libertarians con...Anton: Well stated.<br /><br />Anonymous: Libertarians consistently state that they want lower taxes and less government. However, cooperation is government. So libertarians are consistently stating that they want less cooperation. If two people make an agreement, that's government. It doesn't somehow magically become government only when 30 million or more people are involved.cesium62noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-34053876632542000022014-08-07T23:08:23.856-04:002014-08-07T23:08:23.856-04:00Wowza. We've been lowering taxes on the "...Wowza. We've been lowering taxes on the "most productive" people for what, 30...40 years now? Can't say as how I'm seeing that it's making things better.<br /><br />How did the "most productive" people become the "most productive"? Did they inherit that wealth and thus deserve not to be taxed on that inherited wealth? or did they perhaps take advantage of a society of well educated people with good transportation systems? Do you think that the "most productive" people will continue to be that productive if they pay no taxes to educate their workers or to build roads to move their goods?cesium62noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-44846807406956275842014-08-07T23:02:28.595-04:002014-08-07T23:02:28.595-04:00"your NFL was reorganised along entirely comm..."your NFL was reorganised along entirely communist lines - arguably one of the most successful and lasting examples of how collectivism can work. Not a government official as far as the eye can see"<br /><br />You have an oddly restrictive definition of "government". The NFL commissioner is a government official in NFL society.<br /><br />A couple of examples of how government arises don't seem to be covered by your private property rights. Government historically have arisen to negotiate water rights. Water being a form of private property that doesn't stay put in one place very well if you live on any kind of slope. Governments also play a role whenever there is a commons to be shared: the air, fisheries, cow pastures, etc.... An agreement by a community that ensures a commons is used in a sustainable fashion is government.cesium62noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-46143867174401050322014-08-07T18:03:17.067-04:002014-08-07T18:03:17.067-04:00is this what Libertarians read for porn?is this what Libertarians read for porn?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-29859029656607539022014-08-07T18:02:03.564-04:002014-08-07T18:02:03.564-04:00I can't tell if this is an awesome toll of lib...I can't tell if this is an awesome toll of libertarianism or you honestly believe this.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02681526348633581059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-41357540283510224682014-08-07T17:44:08.703-04:002014-08-07T17:44:08.703-04:00"I'd rather live in a libertarian world t..."I'd rather live in a libertarian world than the colourless, arid, sterile lefty world where govt is 80% of the economy and you're individuality is expressed by whether you wear a che Guevara t-shirt or a chairman mao one."<br /><br />You are aware that there are more than these two options?<br /><br />Why are 'libertarians' such simple-minded black-and-white morons?<br /><br />Oh and please fuck off to your isolated wilderness and leave us all alone, thanks.Joenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-3219646347659881792014-08-07T17:41:29.057-04:002014-08-07T17:41:29.057-04:00... I think everything should be privately owned, ...... I think everything should be privately owned, and my goal is to own all of it. Then if jack-booted lazy, cowardly collectivist thugs breathe *MY* air or drink *MY* water or stand on *MY* land, float on *MY* water or violate *MY* airspace without my permission (and there's NO WAY IN HELL I'll ever give *MY* permission), thus initiating savage, brutal, collectivist violence against me, I will be fully justified in defending myself from this barbaric and inhuman statist abuse of my rights and property by launching a full scale thermonuclear strike against the evil, hate filled, oppressor collectivists (who clearly HATE my freedom and liberty) thus ridding the Earth of worthless, lazy collectivist central planner scum once and for all.Maximum Libertyhttp://www.google.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-76952008201167458152014-08-07T17:39:12.709-04:002014-08-07T17:39:12.709-04:00"and they are senior to all others"
Onl..."and they are senior to all others"<br /><br />Only in a very sick mind.<br /><br />Please don't impose your sickness on us, thanks.Joenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-84957824291631873322014-08-07T17:36:00.785-04:002014-08-07T17:36:00.785-04:00they weren't 'libertarians' or propert...they weren't 'libertarians' or propertarians or anarcho-capitalists.Joenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-27262652172091308432014-08-07T17:29:15.513-04:002014-08-07T17:29:15.513-04:001. I'm a libertarian and I don't want co-o...1. I'm a libertarian and I don't want co-operation.Maximum Libertyhttp://www.google.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-1867540998071094662014-08-07T15:22:01.334-04:002014-08-07T15:22:01.334-04:00Changed platforms, I'm Anon of the "sound...Changed platforms, I'm Anon of the "sounds like a libertarian" post up there.<br /><br />With less mocking but no less incredulity, I point out the following:<br /><br />1) There is lots of privately owned desert (and even more non-desert) open space in this country. The organizers of Burning Man choose to work with the government rather than a private land owner, presumably because doing so is easier and cheaper. If all the land were private, this easier/cheaper alternative would not exist. That seems like a loss.<br /><br />2) None of the Norquist quote in the OP was actually, you know, true. <br /> CLAIM: There's no government that organizes this…. <br /> RESPONSE: Several layers and agencies of government, including the federal land owner and state law enforcement are deeply involved in the organization of the event through their permit review and condition authority.<br /><br />CLAIM: That's what happens when nobody tells you what to do. You just figure it out.<br />RESPONSE: Burning Man is not a law-free zone, nor a regulation-free zone. Lots and lots of people are "telling you what to do" during the event. All laws which would govern Norquist's actions outside Burning Man still apply. An additional set are added because the event is on federally owned land. Yet another set of regulations apply under the federal permit for the event. Still further (private) restrictions are added by contract with the organizers in exchange for the attendance ticket If Norquist finds the result of all of these layers of law and regulation to be to his liking, the correct conclusion is "My happiness is compatible with broad areas of government control. If I am unhappy elsewhere, the problem must be something other than the government."<br /><br />CLAIM: So Burning Man is a refutation of the argument that the state has a place in nature.<br />RESPONSE: A desirable event taking place "in nature" on government owned land and subject to government permits may not support but certainly does not refute the argument that government has a place in nature.<br /><br />CLAIM: This is a fun, exciting, cheerful collection of people being free of state control and doing stuff they want to do…. <br />RESPONSE: In fact, it is a fun, exciting, cheerful collection of people, acting under considerable state control, and doing stuff they want to do. There is nothing at all surprising or inconsistent with that state of affairs. In fact, many regulations enhance freedom on balance. For example, I would note that several conditions of the federal permit for Burning Man relate to the proper handling of human waste. Some attendees may prefer to "do what they want to do" in this regard, but the government controls assure that most attendees are free to "step where they want to step." On balance, I think it is clear that freedom is enhanced.<br /><br />CLAIM: If somebody wants to sit in a corner and read Hayek, I think that that's allowed. If people want to run around with not as much clothes as they normally do, I think that's allowed as well.<br />RESPONSE: Those freedoms are available at Burning Man even under the full force and effect of federal and state law and regulation. Therefore, the law and regulation aren't the problem elsewhere. If he is rousted from his Hayek reading leisure, it a lot more likely that a private landowner is restricting his freedom than a public one. (Granted some exceptions for Hayek-exclusion zones in secure areas of military bases.) Similarly, if he likes the idea of walking around pants-less, Burning Man is a fine demonstration that it isn't the feds or state that are forcing him into unwanted denim. Depending on his degree of commitment this particular freedom, his complaint is either with his local jurisdiction or, more likely, with the informal effects of social disapproval. He may not like the fact that showing up to a Club for Growth meeting in a G-string and boa would have a negative effect on his year-ahead earnings potential, but he is unlikely to be arrested for doing so.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04238192025210567854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-67891986706384347572014-08-07T14:21:52.981-04:002014-08-07T14:21:52.981-04:00Roads and highways are some of the most pernicious...Roads and highways are some of the most pernicious government interventions and implicit subsidies ever. Why is it silly to think the ridiculous subsidies coupled with the dead weight loss of sitting in traffic is a justification for changing transportation priorities?Zachhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01115366572915518720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-73417575348521657762014-08-07T13:39:09.596-04:002014-08-07T13:39:09.596-04:00The problem with Libertarians is their political c...The problem with Libertarians is their political color blindness. It is all black and white. <br />Complete market freedom or Stalinist Russia. There is nothing in between for them. <br />Either you sell your soul to Mammon, or you hate freedom. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com