tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post6806826349056232019..comments2024-03-18T22:32:52.802-04:00Comments on Noahpinion: The libertarian solution to inequalityNoah Smithhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09093917601641588575noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-527113130394389682012-02-18T18:41:39.963-05:002012-02-18T18:41:39.963-05:00Oh for Heaven's sake. Re: the 'Noah's ...Oh for Heaven's sake. Re: the 'Noah's post is hypocritical' crowd: shaming and criticism are, of course, different.<br /><br />The way that criticism works is that you take something that's <i>wrong</i> (false, untrue) and work out what's broken about it. Racism, for instance, can be criticised on these grounds (following which, a holder of racist views might be socially shamed).<br /><br />There is nothing untrue about the assertion: 'income and wealth inequality in the US is crazy-high and getting higher'. So that puts it beyond the purview of criticism. You might dispute its impact or relevance (my two cents is that it's crucial), but that's a different thing.<br /><br />Caplan is arguing not that we <i>should</i> dispute its impact or relevance, but rather that everyone should just wear (more of) it and STFU.<br /><br />As an lefty, my mouth is wide open. But if I was a libertarian, my mouth would also be... wide open.<br /><br />ps. Anonymous@7:11 - being offended is not the end of the world. Being (diplomatically) told your ideological blinkers are on and you're wrong and hey, here's the data that demonstrates it, is <i>okay</i>. The poor darlings will make it.Dannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-25418408868756299982011-11-11T11:08:02.071-05:002011-11-11T11:08:02.071-05:00Comparison of "criticizing" and "pu...Comparison of "criticizing" and "publicly-shaming" and through that pointing out the self contradictory nature of this post would be a fair argument if this post's position were discarding all possible criticism, public-shaming and alike. But it isn't. However, Noah's attack on a libertarian argumentation as such has a merit (unlike the counter arguments of "critique equals public shame" group), given that public-shame is a level of control on the members of public that is inconsistent with the core principles of libertarianism.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-62204686677223819022011-09-14T07:11:03.882-04:002011-09-14T07:11:03.882-04:00I would suggest we're already there. EVERYTHIN...I would suggest we're already there. EVERYTHING has become "political." <br />..<br />I work for a public authority involved in workforce development and job placement. Even data-driven discussions on the effectiveness of further fiscal stimulus, monetary policy or the President's jobs bill are frowned upon because many of our board members are Republican and may be offended. <br />..<br />In the current environment, at least in the American South, "yur fer us or agin us."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-23342664110168080192011-08-26T00:16:01.925-04:002011-08-26T00:16:01.925-04:00Wow! Caplan, the self proclaimed libertarian has a...Wow! Caplan, the self proclaimed libertarian has apparently never read the seminal libertarian text, Mill's "On Liberty".<br /><br />Here is Mill on the illegitimacy of social pressure to coerce opinion:<br /> "The object of this essay is to assert one very simple principle, as entitled to govern absolutely the dealings of society with the individual in the way of compulsion and control, whether the means used be physical force in the form of legal penaltities, or the MORAL COERCION OF PUBLIC OPINION. That principle is that the sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively, in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their number, is self-protection."chris9059https://www.blogger.com/profile/05429250821150121973noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-66381944392544775482011-08-25T17:10:38.714-04:002011-08-25T17:10:38.714-04:00"information wants to be free"
surely a..."information wants to be free"<br /><br />surely an economist should know that this is one of those totally wrong memes<br />Infact, information, as energy (think 2nd law thermo here) wants to be charged for<br />Information is as valuable as a barrel of oil, and a lot harder to getezra abramsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-85991770141094346272011-08-25T16:37:41.961-04:002011-08-25T16:37:41.961-04:00Unsafe neighborhoods make people unhappier. We sh...Unsafe neighborhoods make people unhappier. We should simply shame people who talk about how crime is so much higher in certain areas. The police should not be allowed to publish crime statistics. What you don't know can't hurt you, right?<br /><br />I think the problem is that Caplan (I won't extend it to all libertarians, but I don't think one would be all that far off to do so), simply doesn't recognize when someone talks about inequality, they are actually talking about actual people working 2 jobs but with kids who are malnourished. And these people see all these folks driving around in limousines all day.<br /><br />All Caplan seems to see is a curve, and a number.<br /><br />Getting rid of the curve and the number won't make those people feel any better that their kid is entering life with a huge disadvantage.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-14440901786695094232011-08-22T16:56:06.195-04:002011-08-22T16:56:06.195-04:00I think you took what is obviously a wry joke from...I think you took what is obviously a wry joke from a purposely contrarian libertarian a little too seriouslyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-72128977866768302642011-08-18T17:19:57.814-04:002011-08-18T17:19:57.814-04:00RE: shaming people who point out income difference...RE: shaming people who point out income differences - This is commonly done today. When the middle class calls for taxing the wealthy, they are accused of "class warfare".<br />Sounds to me like good old-fashioned social darwinism applied to income instead of race.BobS.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00947797303268752142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-30057732300888238682011-08-17T21:19:32.593-04:002011-08-17T21:19:32.593-04:00Ralmond, the GINI index is just simple math that i...Ralmond, the GINI index is just simple math that in this case measures what percentile of the populace has what percentile of the country's income. Total income is overwhelming and increasingly held by a smaller and smaller percent of the country. This is not a perception but,rather, an actual fact. Advertising is hardly the issue.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-79872260572411288012011-08-17T20:24:39.447-04:002011-08-17T20:24:39.447-04:00I don't think the problem is bloggers talking ...I don't think the problem is bloggers talking about "Gini coefficients" (I don't know what that is and I have a PhD from Harvard). The truly poor are not seeing those posts. The real problem is the advertisers.<br /><br />Typical folks are getting thousands of messages a day about how they would be happier if they drove a better car, wore flashier clothes, ate better food, had all the latest high tech toys and consumed all of the expensive entertainment. If folks are too poor to have all that, the advertisements make them unhappy.<br /><br />On the other hand, I don't think the libertarians are calling for an end to advertising, they would regard that as protected speech.ralmondhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05940072941068366047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-31978742676697052432011-08-17T15:52:30.477-04:002011-08-17T15:52:30.477-04:00"I find it ironic than in a post arguing agai..."I find it ironic than in a post arguing against shaming people, you come pretty close to shaming libertarians, but whatever."<br /><br />With all respect, I don't think that this is actually shaming. I strongly doubt Dr. Caplan feels "shamed."<br /><br />Further, I don't think that the claim that what we need to do is lower people's envy at others' good fortune really holds water here. The reason I say this is that the claim that Dr. Caplan advances is very conservative, at its heart. If one wants to affect change, one is going to have to do so on the basis that one's situation is far less than optimal, something that is absent from Dr. Caplan's example. The set-up that Dr. Caplan uses presupposes something like a nice stable office environment. Well, it really isn't like that at the moment, where many American workers have real fears concerning job stability and longevity. If we changed the example a little--"we are reducing the workforce by 10%, whilst those at the top get 30% raises"--then what happens to the notions of "envy" or "jealousy" in play here? Sure, you can talk about "envy" but is that the emotion actually in play here? <br /><br />Under Dr. Caplan's view, it would be easy to dismiss the resulting emotion as "envy." What about "righteous indignation"? If so, then this would suggest that freer information may increase social instability (an undesirable ideological outcome from a conservative perspective). It might also generate energy for desirable change, at least as seen from a different ideological perspective. Just a thought...Cashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14658689525144505595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-27884612302030721612011-08-17T13:23:34.502-04:002011-08-17T13:23:34.502-04:00The fact is that as the GINI index of income inequ...The fact is that as the GINI index of income inequality has steadily risen since about 1980, subsequent real GDP growth has decelerated. No trickle down here. Move along. Nothing to see.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-50425660554240104072011-08-17T13:09:48.387-04:002011-08-17T13:09:48.387-04:00The comparisons to shaming racism and the like are...The comparisons to shaming racism and the like are utterly bizarre.<br /><br />First, racism is wrong. We hold people morally responsible for wrongdoings (and, to some extent, wrongthinkings). Shaming people is one way of holding them responsible. Are Caplan and others asserting that disliking inequality is morally wrong such that shaming is an appropriate reaction of moral accountability? I don't think that they are. But then why is it appropriate to shame? They are making a utilitarian argument - everyone will be happier if we just stop talking about inequality. But that is the very point at issue - realistic people think that that is simply a libertarian fantasy.<br /><br />There's a second point - the progress made by shaming racism and sexism comes from informing and educating people with facts and discrediting false theories (cf. Murray's "Bell Curve"). We point out the very real effects of discrimination and we also expose people to the fact that instances of racism, sexism, etc. are all baseless or unjustified since there are no relevant differences between races and sexes in the relevant cases. But the advocates of shaming in this case are trying to keep people UNINFORMED! They advocate shaming people for exposing the truth! This is really the anti-libertarian aspect, as J.S. Mill would argue.<br /> <br />Last, shaming of racism and sexism has certainly been part of positive movement to change institutions and official policies. But it certainly has not come even close to stopping people from privately being racist or sexist. But the proper comparison is the private one, not the public one. A person's psychology is affected by inequality in his or her society regardless of what official policy is.Stevenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-64305637366706145482011-08-17T11:57:24.277-04:002011-08-17T11:57:24.277-04:00@ Mike - agreed. Thanks for putting that so succin...@ Mike - agreed. Thanks for putting that so succinctly.rosebriarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02229537505859471832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-63014303635052466282011-08-17T11:46:20.102-04:002011-08-17T11:46:20.102-04:00Libertarianism is nothing more than narcissistic ...Libertarianism is nothing more than narcissistic sociopathy attempting to wear the robes of philosophy.<br /><br />There was a time when I argued with libertarians, just as there was a time as a young parent that I argued with my clever 5 year old. Both efforts were fruitless.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-54301391484154708722011-08-17T09:51:34.754-04:002011-08-17T09:51:34.754-04:00Excellent post.
It is amusing to see all the biza...Excellent post.<br /><br />It is amusing to see all the bizarre libertarian comments that attempt to distract from the subject with assorted ad-hominem and nit-picking criticisms.<br /><br />Bruce Wilder is spot on with his comment.Mike Hubenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01371469964446567690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-86571926242088174092011-08-17T07:39:05.816-04:002011-08-17T07:39:05.816-04:00Mr. Caplan is right. Nobody likes a sore loser. ...Mr. Caplan is right. Nobody likes a sore loser. Most especially when he comprises 90% of the population. (see: Arab Spring - Hosni, yes, but I like it too.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-74098986756750802152011-08-17T03:05:32.742-04:002011-08-17T03:05:32.742-04:00The bottom line, libertarians, is that people care...<i>The bottom line, libertarians, is that people care about what they care about.</i><br /><br />Sorry, I missed the first part of your post. You're a traditional conservative telling Bryan Caplan and other libertarians that we shouldn't shame people for being racist or try to get them to be pacifist and avoid war, because both of those things are part of human nature and what people care about.<br /><br />Some libertarians like Rand Paul have questioned whether the Civil Rights Act reduced liberty-- seems like you're going even farther in claiming that even making people feel bad about being racist reduces liberty.John Thackerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15269867695937765049noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-77251474705611732822011-08-17T00:09:20.802-04:002011-08-17T00:09:20.802-04:00I meant the few who face unemployment and poverty....I meant the few who face unemployment and poverty...Juliannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-68641713160732064892011-08-17T00:07:52.604-04:002011-08-17T00:07:52.604-04:00It seems like an awfully roundabout way of dealing...It seems like an awfully roundabout way of dealing with inequality to heap scorn upon those who raise the issue. Wouldn't it be better to identify the roots of inequality and try to provide a level playing field, especially in those cases where the "causes" are generated by unfairness in institutions and/or social conditions? Furthermore, what harm does it do to promote a more egalitarian society? It has not destroyed the economies of the states in Europe with a more complete welfare state apparatus. All the hype about "Eurosclerosis" is overdone. Maybe having a somewhat higher unemployment rate would be more tolerable if there was a better social safety net for the many who face unemployment and poverty.Juliannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-8670318147571275902011-08-16T20:32:46.662-04:002011-08-16T20:32:46.662-04:00Why do you think it's libertarians who have an...Why do you think it's libertarians who have an odd notion of liberty? Shaming people who talk about inequality only makes them feel less free if their notion of freedom involves saying whatever they please without even the possibility of a disapproving response. I don't think any notion of liberty could be odder.Jamesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-63556700853875146082011-08-16T15:11:15.465-04:002011-08-16T15:11:15.465-04:00The implicit tyranny at the heart of libertarianis...The implicit tyranny at the heart of libertarianism. We've all seen it before: many highly intolerant and standoffish people claim to be libertarians. Coincidence? I think not.TheIllusionisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17642837989235595346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-70771302350921085272011-08-16T14:23:50.608-04:002011-08-16T14:23:50.608-04:00The Libertarians are like the mathematician in the...The Libertarians are like the mathematician in the joke who says "first we assume a can opener".<br /><br />The Libertarians start with: "assume the existence of property rights and a functioning legal system" - but they don't understand it is the punchline to a joke not the foundation of a coherent theory of society.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-53525622685894017292011-08-16T14:19:35.182-04:002011-08-16T14:19:35.182-04:00Can one be both free and ignorant? or are the libe...Can one be both free and ignorant? or are the libertarians just proposing that the little people be kept ignorant for the sake of their mental health?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-2065979367506870302011-08-16T14:13:59.984-04:002011-08-16T14:13:59.984-04:00A healthy, progressing world will have some level ...A healthy, progressing world will have some level of inequality. And, to the extent that it can be measured, there will be stochastic movement in that measure.<br />But, in political discourse, we simply see a constant drumbeat of claims of the poor losing at the expense of the rich. At your next cocktail party, I dare you to try to suggest that it might be reasonable to see a period of increasing inequality. Yet, this clearly must be true sometimes, unless you really think the only healthy long term equilibrium for the world is some sort of uber-egalitarian stasis.<br />So, since this topic is so clearly muddied with social posing, how exactly do you propose a libertarian should address the issue?<br />And, really, if you plucked anyone from any point in history and placed them in the modern west, can you really claim with a straight face that their reaction would be, "Wow, it looks like an economic system based on property rights and free exchange has left this landscape littered with a sorry mass of have-nots!"?kebkonoreply@blogger.com