tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post7660980751667707134..comments2024-03-28T03:16:14.104-04:00Comments on Noahpinion: White supremacy does not reign supremeNoah Smithhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09093917601641588575noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-66901912699887919282014-03-31T00:24:38.911-04:002014-03-31T00:24:38.911-04:00Noah, beyond the several other good points made ab...Noah, beyond the several other good points made about white supremacy, I feel like you were pretty rose-colored with your financial data. What about the racially targeted subprime loans (http://www.theatlanticcities.com/housing/2013/08/blacks-really-were-targeted-bogus-loans-during-housing-boom/6559/) & the growth in wealth gap (http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/08/30/black-incomes-are-up-but-wealth-isnt/)? Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07642390088933143845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-40559207977462222752014-03-28T18:02:49.188-04:002014-03-28T18:02:49.188-04:00Now, I don't see race. People tell me I'm ...Now, I don't see race. People tell me I'm white, and I believe them, because I own a lot of Jimmy Buffet albums. I assume that people tell TNC that he is black because grew up in Baltimore and went to school at Howard. But since people have told him that, is it so strange that he would see himself as a black person? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-71192864905698064652014-03-28T09:15:18.122-04:002014-03-28T09:15:18.122-04:00"Sure, there will always be white supremacist..."Sure, there will always be white supremacists out there - a chunk of white people who view the white 'race' as their own 'team,' and who want that team to 'win.'"<br /><br />Someone may have already pointed this out, but I don't think you properly understood what Coates meant by "white supremacy." He's not referring to "white supremacists" in the traditional sense--people who believe that the white race is superior to all others--but to a endemic institutional bias that favors white people over minorities (specifically African-Americans in this case). Coates argues that the federal government essentially sanctioned terrorism against African-Americans through legalized slavery--and later on, segregation. That point is crucial. For Coates, the problem lies not in what individuals feel in their hearts regarding race; it lies in the U.S. government's willingness to either adopt laws and policies that further discrimination (see the War on Drugs), or to refuse to put laws on the books to curtail discrimination against African-Americans (see America post-slavery). That's his point. Now, you can reasonably suggest that he's not giving the U.S. enough credit for gradually ending those discriminatory institutions (as Chait does in his rebuttal today), but it's important to frame Coates's positions as one of institutional critique.Maxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-88923640994988414032014-03-27T13:56:33.032-04:002014-03-27T13:56:33.032-04:00"assigning blame is silly, especially assigni..."assigning blame is silly, especially assigning blame to whole racial groups" <br />wha wha wha???? White supremacy and supremacists, and BLAMING them, is what the whole discussion is about.<br /><br />The real reason Ta is getting pessimistic is that the biggest cause for increasing problems in the black community is out-of-wedlock child rearing. Having children without being married is, for both blacks and whites, a marker for much higher probabilities of low achievement of the children.<br /><br />You mention progress -- but the number and percentage of children not living with married parents is going up, getting more negative.<br /><br />Ta wants the problem to be racists. But the real problem is promiscuity. And neither he, nor you Noah, nor any Dems I'm reading, are being honest enough to state that problem. Racism is becoming a more obviously less influential reason for black poverty relative to black cultural choices.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-49794057826944504262014-03-27T12:53:21.423-04:002014-03-27T12:53:21.423-04:00Exactly. Noah's central premise seems to be th...Exactly. Noah's central premise seems to be that Coates does not acknowledge any progress. That just seems to be a bizarre takeaway from Coates' writing. Unless you demand that any reference to white supremacy must always include the disclaimer "of course we all know things are soooo much better than they used to be."<br /><br />Coates does take a pretty dark tone and tries I think to point directly at uncomfortable truths that many of us would prefer to think we're past. For some reason, this seems to lead many otherwise smart, thoughtful people to misunderstand him or take offense.MaxUtilitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-27844322944245118812014-03-27T12:48:21.648-04:002014-03-27T12:48:21.648-04:00"Coates's explanation for the black under..."Coates's explanation for the black underclass fails to account for the indisputable fact that there is far less prejudice against blacks"<br /><br />I simply do not understand how you see this in Coates' writing. Are you asserting that somehow the existence of an underclass is directly tied to the current exact ratio of prejudice and will magically adjust as incremental improvements are made. If if you tried to make the claim that at the current time there is zero racial prejudice, do you believe that somehow there will be no lingering effects from centuries of a coordinated campaign to disenfranchise and impoverish people?MaxUtilitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-18760205317157975362014-03-27T12:43:18.816-04:002014-03-27T12:43:18.816-04:00@Nate - I think you're being way to hard on No...@Nate - I think you're being way to hard on Noah here. I think he's trying to have an honest discussion and not deliberately trotting out the "petulant Negro trope". But the problem is Noah and some commentors weird assertion that Coates does not acknowledge any progress or thinks that white supremacy of today is somehow equivalent to that of the past. That just seems like such a shallow reading of Coates articles.MaxUtilitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-52503303830512198912014-03-27T12:37:10.432-04:002014-03-27T12:37:10.432-04:00I think one of the key points of Coates' recen...I think one of the key points of Coates' recent articles was specifically exploring this attitude that "Black people need to look towards each other for blame" and that the only major remaining impediment to african-american advancement is flaws in their culture. His dispute with Chait was about the fact that the "left" tends to do this as well if perhaps using softer language or more nuanced arguments to defend it.<br /><br />The notion that blacks have some distinctly and verifiable worse culture than anyone else and that somehow all current problems run directly from their own decisions and actions and with no connection to the past or current policies is easily refuted if you look at it anything like a serious way.MaxUtilitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-11955650566138771942014-03-27T12:18:35.392-04:002014-03-27T12:18:35.392-04:00"But would it have been possible in 1868? In ..."But would it have been possible in 1868? In 1968? Even in 1998?"<br /><br />I would put the first plausible year for an African American to be elected president at 1992. For an African American not named "Colin Powell," you may be right. Pathttp://berlinmusings.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-13971996569900163872014-03-26T20:33:02.790-04:002014-03-26T20:33:02.790-04:00Utter b.s. White supremacy is a marginal belief i...Utter b.s. White supremacy is a marginal belief in the US today. That contrasts pretty sharply with the US only 40-50 years ago. The vast majority of Americans - including conservatives and Republicans - reject white supremacy as a political philosophy and while they may suffer from prejudice (being only human and not saints), they know that prejudice is a sin and are willing to accept the role of law in constraining choices based on prejudice. None of this, of course, has anything at all to do with the growth and persistence of the black underclass. Coates's explanation for the black underclass fails to account for the indisputable fact that there is far less prejudice against blacks in the US today than 50 years ago. That is why he can't be taken seriously. Douglas B. Levenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07916420802096618688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-51128245123151981882014-03-24T13:19:28.498-04:002014-03-24T13:19:28.498-04:00Interesting post, as is Coates's. You both hav...Interesting post, as is Coates's. You both have really valid points. Although I'm a fat old white guy, I've never had much money and so have lived most my life in urban areas largely populated with "minorities." I can never feel the way Coates does, but for decades I've seen my honest, intelligent, hard-working friends and neighbors overlooked or mistreated because of their ethnicity. On the street, in class, or in the boardroom, same old stuff. Yeah, it's getting better, but there's a hellofa long way to go. <br /><br />Anyway, a tidbit: some researchers now think much of the reduction in urban violence has been due to the elimination of lead in the air and in paint. <br /><br />Also, could you add Discus to your comment choices?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-4705698457362491182014-03-24T10:04:34.471-04:002014-03-24T10:04:34.471-04:00This is silly--of course Coates knows there has be...This is silly--of course Coates knows there has been progress, and whether or not the country will ever be purged of racism is impossible to know (hard even to define). And it's tough, especially as a white man, to celebrate progress against racism, since you are always opening yourself to the criticism that you are not giving enough attention to the truly awful state of things as they continue to be. Nevertheless, let me add my mite to the pile of evidence of progress. WHen I started teaching high school en years ago, my school's cafeteria always had several tables that were all-black (we also had tables that were all-Russian, or all-Chinese, or all-lacrosse, etc.). But over the past several years there has been notable progress, and now there is almost never even one table that doesn't have at least one white or asian kid sitting at it. Along with other signs (more interracial couples, etc.), this increased mixing of the cafeteria has been just amazing to see. I really never thought it would happen in my career as a teacher. And yet it has. To be sure, the school is still deeply unequal, and the black kids have a much tougher time in many, many ways, but things are very noticeably better now than ten years ago.erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15459764573179565354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-40624981156363761342014-03-24T03:48:10.574-04:002014-03-24T03:48:10.574-04:00I feel certain we're approaching the time when...I feel certain we're approaching the time when all of us , of all races , religions , etc. , will be treated equally. Well , let's say 99% of us , anyway.<br /><br />The 1% will treat us all equally , as slaves.<br /><br />Don't despair folks , we're almost there !Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-14282978615788358772014-03-24T00:56:57.190-04:002014-03-24T00:56:57.190-04:00And it looks like it will control the Senate and t...<i>And it looks like it will control the Senate and the House after the next election.</i><br /><br />What dreadful thought, actually worse than whiteness, blackness and all that may be in between.KVnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-18167003427541433072014-03-23T22:12:18.305-04:002014-03-23T22:12:18.305-04:00Yep, the human existence is full of ignorant peopl...Yep, the human existence is full of ignorant people.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-17882800698590943062014-03-23T16:14:45.767-04:002014-03-23T16:14:45.767-04:00Every southerner ever. Have you been to a civil wa...Every southerner ever. Have you been to a civil war re-enactment? The south lives for lost causes.<br /><br />On a serious note I agree with your main point. Saying we've made progress but not enough is much more motivating to me than saying we're beating our heads against the wall for a just cause. Nate Kratzerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15849224250357011564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-74540266273098765932014-03-23T15:28:34.880-04:002014-03-23T15:28:34.880-04:00There are probably still people out there who thin...<i>There are probably still people out there who think that Europe should be ruled by a Holy Roman Empire.</i><br /><br />Some Austrian economists, also neoreactionists.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17797928102421103389noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-64963601980204205562014-03-23T01:01:24.831-04:002014-03-23T01:01:24.831-04:00Not sure if the previous post worked. Maybe postin...Not sure if the previous post worked. Maybe posting as Anonymous will.<br />...<br /><br />Pinker's full of it. He isn't honestly presenting the data.<br /><br />http://publicintellectualsproject.mcmaster.ca/democracy/reality-denial-steven-pinkers-apologetics-for-western-imperial-violence/<br /><br />As for "white supremacy", it was never really about racism anyway. It was about economic power, and separating the poor whites from poor blacks made it easier to control both populations (this became very literally true after a few mixed-race bondsman rebellions). But today this is still true - the inhabitants of inner cities, primarily black, have little to no use in American capitalism except as profitable prisoners. This is the fundamental reason why things are still so bad, leaking into race relations and everything else - but it's a reason that isn't going to be mainstream anytime soon, as it has other threatening implications.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-10226564033035096152014-03-22T23:08:59.592-04:002014-03-22T23:08:59.592-04:00Do you even disagree with Coates? You focus on hi...Do you even disagree with Coates? You focus on his line "[white supremacy] will likely afflict black people until this country passes into the dust," but you agree that white supremacy will remain a powerful and significant part of America, even if it loses ground over the centuries. It seems that your main difference is one of tone and perspective.<br /><br />Coates didn't say nothing would ever change, and he's also speaking to a totally different issue, the question of "black pathology".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-52452243566841335432014-03-22T20:24:15.499-04:002014-03-22T20:24:15.499-04:00Very true!Very true!Noah Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09093917601641588575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-51885931688760431032014-03-22T16:11:58.713-04:002014-03-22T16:11:58.713-04:00You're right--I made a false equivalence betwe...You're right--I made a false equivalence between the two pieces. Coates is making an effort to say something interesting about the form that racial inequality takes these days. Consider that claim retracted.Ramnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-61250725359530537782014-03-22T15:33:09.305-04:002014-03-22T15:33:09.305-04:00"If we want to motivate people, maybe just po..."If we want to motivate people, maybe just point out specific ways in which we currently fall short of the ideal of racial equality..."<br /><br />Coates article spends considerable space doing just that. His piece deals with the dismantling of diversionary tactic used by many to avoid having conversations about race and/or equality. The diversionary tactic is to blame Black "culture" for racism. Coates presents evidence that shows that this "culture" has never been free of the effects of white supremacy and goes further to dismantle the idea that Black "culture" has ever been concerned with anything other than advancement. Understanding this diversionary tactic and rejecting it as an attempt to diminish/dismiss discussions of racial equality is one of the "specific changes" you requested.<br /><br />Mr. Smith ignores the majority of what Coates writes and skips ahead to his purpose by trotting out an older less sophisticated diversionary tactic- the unhappy, ungrateful, petulant Negro trope. He suggests that Mr. Coates is a "pessimist", unable to see all of the wonderful things that have transpired in this country. Less intellectually inclined writers usually list celebrities like Oprah, Bill Cosby and Michael Jordan as examples of all that is wonderful about being Black in the 21st century (they usually save Pres. Obama for the closer). Mr Smith uses carefully parsed history and economics to make his points but somehow forgets to list all of the CR era inspired legislation that has been dismantled in the name of white supremacy. Smith would rather not entertain a discussion about the racism Coates points out so he attempts to dismiss him by characterizing his view as pessimistic by suggesting that we're actually doing a whole lot better than we think. After all he should know, right?<br /><br />Coates' piece elegantly deconstructs a diversionary tactic designed to perpetuate racism (fulfilling your request to "point out specific ways in which we currently fall short") and Smith's blog post looks to ignore that deconstruction by asking that we all just "look on the bright side" and wait for white supremacy to just die out naturally- on it's own, whenever it's ready... whenever the time is right... whenever.Nate Jacksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10526702290651301462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-14204577640327871562014-03-22T15:00:28.746-04:002014-03-22T15:00:28.746-04:00It is true that there has been progress on treatme...It is true that there has been progress on treatment of blacks in America - from slaves - a condition codified by the US Constitution - they have become more or less normal members of American society - that is, the overt oppressive action of the state have been systematically eliminated. But white racism remains a powerful force in America today. The Republican Party would not exist in its present form without it - orchestrating white racism is the number one tool it uses to achieve its ends. And it looks like it will control the Senate and the House after the next election.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-31737079969335518872014-03-22T14:15:09.536-04:002014-03-22T14:15:09.536-04:00Fair enough, but the point is that there are facts...Fair enough, but the point is that there are facts everyone clearly agrees on: (1) a tremendous amount of progress towards today's notion of racial equality has been made over the last couple of centuries, and (2) a lot remains to be done. It's not clear to me what the value of stating either of these things is when everyone in the conversation is basically on the same page. If we want to motivate people, maybe just point out specific ways in which we currently fall short of the ideal of racial equality, and then propose specific changes to address these. Neither piece seems to fall into this category.Ramnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-24879022571482619182014-03-22T14:09:07.697-04:002014-03-22T14:09:07.697-04:00Surely you assumed that some Black folks would rea...<i>Surely you assumed that some Black folks would read your post right? </i><br /><br />Of course! I meant that my post is not aimed at Coates, who I'm sure already knows all of this and has thought of everything I've said. It's aimed at his readers and potential readers, and of course many of those will be black.<br /><br /><i>your innate understanding of the African American perspective</i><br /><br />No. <br /><br /><i>To some that smacks of white supremacy- "Hold on there, let me tell you what you really think".</i><br /><br />Ha.<br /><br />That's so dumb. Of course I'm not telling anyone what they "really think". I'm telling them what <i>I</i> really think.<br /><br /><i>Noah, white supremacy (specifically white male supremacy) IS our DNA- always has been.</i><br /><br />I don't think so.<br /><br /><i>"You don't stick a knife in a man's back nine inches and then pull it out six inches and say you're making progress ... No matter how much respect, no matter how much recognition, whites show towards me, as far as I am concerned, as long as it is not shown to everyone of our people in this country, it doesn't exist for me.”</i><br /><br />He's always going to be disappointed, because no human of any race always gets respect.<br /><br />Noah Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09093917601641588575noreply@blogger.com