tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post8036218519659589160..comments2024-03-18T22:32:52.802-04:00Comments on Noahpinion: Rise of the cyborgsNoah Smithhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09093917601641588575noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-36783169075435632942013-01-02T08:55:06.691-05:002013-01-02T08:55:06.691-05:00"The whole world could look and sound however..."The whole world could look and sound however you wanted."Already happpnimg e.g. Republican 'Reality' - Fox-Limbaugh typeAmitnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-1857039934035034282013-01-01T06:34:46.012-05:002013-01-01T06:34:46.012-05:00Third choice? Perhaps you can actually articulate ...Third choice? Perhaps you can actually articulate what the first two are coherently?<br /><br />What is consciousness? What are sufficient conditions for computation to render consciousness? If you don't know the answer to that, it is chutzpah beyond belief to say that computation is the only possible basis for consciousness. In fact, it sounds very much like the mysticism you claim to disavow. Suddenly (magically?) one crosses a threshold in computational power and consciousness arises? I'm sure that's not what you think, so apologies for the caricature, but if you are going to accuse me of mysticism you might want to spell out what this single coherent idea of consciousness is (and why you can so confidently proscribe all other possibilities with no empirical evidence at all).<br /><br />It's particularly funny, by the way, that you invoke computation as a physicalist explanation for consciousness. The principles of computation are not physically instantiated. As with consciousness for behavior (in my opinion), you can't show me a system where computation must be invoked to explain the system's output. The electrons move around according to the laws of physics, etc. At no point does one need to invoke computation to explain a system's behavior. It might be convenient (in a levels of explanation sense) though.<br /><br />People through history have a tendency to conceive of consciousness as analogous to the most complex technology they understand.CMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-57130675549716784782012-12-29T20:08:51.511-05:002012-12-29T20:08:51.511-05:00@da55id: given the immensity of the universe that ...@da55id: given the immensity of the universe that we _know_ exists, I agree with you that the barest speck of it which we have explored (here on earth and in our immediate galactic neighborhood) doesn't give us any basis whatsoever for foreclosing on other possibilities regarding the nature of consciousness.Goodwin Cochranehttp://noahpinionblog.blogspot.fr/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-12934119557974250932012-12-29T19:04:46.943-05:002012-12-29T19:04:46.943-05:00CM
I usually try to not feed the trolls but go ah...CM<br /><br />I usually try to not feed the trolls but go ahead and enlighten me and prove how smart and well read you think you are. <br /><br />If there is some third choice explanation for consciousness other than a "computation" or some supernatural/religious/outside the laws of physics explanation tell us. Saying that consciousness arises from physical processes but cannot be emulated in real time on current computers due to lack of processing power does not mean that consciousness is not a computation.<br />Absalonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09131268683451462949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-74926099142992171562012-12-29T16:36:51.913-05:002012-12-29T16:36:51.913-05:00To be honest I'm not excited about cyborgs.
I...To be honest I'm not excited about cyborgs.<br /><br />I would love to be some mutant human though. Like a human with superpowers? Coool.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-7003206109164774072012-12-28T18:04:09.153-05:002012-12-28T18:04:09.153-05:00Joshua: I think this is an interesting point, and ...Joshua: I think this is an interesting point, and getting somewhere, but what subset? That makes the problem much more explicit. Saying "consciousness is computation" has relatively little explanatory power, phenomenologically or behaviorally. Consciousness might (in contrast to some, I would say does) have aspects that are like computation, but it is clear that most people recognise that computation is not the same as consciousness. Given this, the question is, what distinguishes computation that creates/correlates with/whatever consciousness from that which does not? Is that even a scientific question?<br /><br />Absalon: If you think that consciousness as computation is the only argument, or that in saying this I am advocating some kind of mystical anti-science, you just aren't very widely read. And if you think I don't understand your weak binary joke, you might want to consider that I have published on neural dynamics and computation. But why stop laughing when you already know everything?CMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-34525390182918985812012-12-28T11:28:07.815-05:002012-12-28T11:28:07.815-05:00CM: Most of your arguments fall apart if conscious...CM: Most of your arguments fall apart if consciousness is a proper subset of computation, which is the more common version of the idea.Joshua L. Lylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03358762663581842879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-58355780355100961752012-12-28T08:06:25.101-05:002012-12-28T08:06:25.101-05:00If consciousness is computation, then you guys mus...If consciousness is computation, then you guys must feel pretty horrible about throwing out old calculators and laptops and phones. If you don't, then perhaps you can explain at what point computation becomes consciousness? When it is reflexive, and examines itself? Plenty of engineered systems do that. I can set up a computer with a thermocouple and have it reduce its rate of computation to prevent overheating. Is it now conscious?<br /><br />Computation is analogical to some aspects of consciousness, but they are far from isomorphic and the analogy can become misleading. If you think that you are a biological computer but you think that there is something qualitatively different between you and a computer (such that, for example, you can ethically justify ever switching a powerful computer off), then you are the one who has a hole in your theory.<br /><br />A good book to read is 'Encountering the World: Toward an Ecological Psychology', by Ed Reed.CMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-85009968144806095302012-12-28T05:34:46.505-05:002012-12-28T05:34:46.505-05:00This is really an interesting blog as it focuses o...This is really an interesting blog as it focuses on the very important topic. <br /><br /> <a href="http://www.life-uninterrupted.com/" rel="nofollow">HIFU therapy</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-80369649106934082142012-12-28T00:13:47.713-05:002012-12-28T00:13:47.713-05:00I am not seeing the challenges what are they?I am not seeing the challenges what are they?Stevenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-27212021568134294022012-12-28T00:12:16.255-05:002012-12-28T00:12:16.255-05:00An SSRI has worked wonders for me when dealing wit...An SSRI has worked wonders for me when dealing with health related anxiety. Whether they work on depression I have no idea.Stevenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-43338346288706325762012-12-28T00:06:34.269-05:002012-12-28T00:06:34.269-05:00Must agree with Absalon on this - either we are bi...Must agree with Absalon on this - either we are biological computers or we are not. There doesn't seem to be a third option. As an atheist I must say if it turns out we are more than just a collection of cells it will be a life changing event for me.Stevenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-55659746609911625762012-12-27T20:27:24.419-05:002012-12-27T20:27:24.419-05:00Consciousness is probably computation. A good book...Consciousness is probably computation. A good book for understanding how that could be is Good and Real by Gary Drescher. Check it out!<br />Chrisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-44239325680286214892012-12-27T18:18:43.030-05:002012-12-27T18:18:43.030-05:00Wow, everybody's into scientific prognosticati...Wow, everybody's into scientific prognostication this season.<br />Oh well, we were anticipating a "cliff;" it was drilled into us using currently available subliminal technology.<br /><br />So, probably, the ideaemporium of Dr.Smith/Krugman is just a helpful congnitive-behavioral therapy to counter the blows we received during this year's battle with Mordor. <br /><br />OK, the "cliff" was imaginary so we are free to imagine ourselves anywhere.<br /><br />Wonder if it means anything?<br /><br />We know it is good fun!<br />Proven, by Websters: <br />Wilcox, K,, Hagtvedt, H., & Kocher, B. (2012), Encouraging Ideal Behavior by Imagining Luxury Consumption. Presented Association for Consumer Research North American Conference. Vancouver, BC. October. <br /><br />But, watch out!<br />Gino, F. Norton, M. I., & Ariely, D. (2010). The counterfeit self: the deceptive costs of faking it. Psychological Science. 21:5. 712-20.<br /><br />They used designer sunglasses. When people learned their Brand-name glasses were actually knockoffs, "Those wearing fake sunglasses cheated more across multiple tasks than did participants wearing authentic sunglasses..."<br /><br />Also, sorry to say, science fiction really bloomed during the 1930s, and those of us who kept reading during the good years kind of saw this coming. <br /><br />Helots!<br /><br />Now instruments are of various sorts; some are living, others lifeless; in the rudder, the pilot of a ship has a lifeless, in the look-out man, a living instrument. ...<br />… the servant is himself an instrument which takes precedence of all other instruments. For if every instrument could accomplish its own work, obeying or anticipating the will of others, like the statues of Daedalus, or the tripods of Hephaestus, which, says the poet, <br />"of their own accord entered the assembly of the Gods;"<br /> if, in like manner, the shuttle would weave and the plectrum touch the lyre without a hand to guide them, chief workmen would not want servants, nor masters slaves.<br /><br />Politics, of course, Aristotle.<br /><br />So, how does it continue? Perhaps by once again assigning, "Economic prospects for our grandchildren," a work virtually none of my students has ever been able to read.Ronald Calitrihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07206853993777529429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-120171371671729812012-12-27T17:39:14.536-05:002012-12-27T17:39:14.536-05:00"imagine how easy it would be to talk to cute..."imagine how easy it would be to talk to cute girls at parties if your mobile device could zap you with artificial self-confidence every time you started to get scared"..<br />- This is a terrible idea. I'd be surrounded by a roomfull of artificially self-confident chicks trying to talk to me, so I'd have way less time that usual talking to the cute ones.<br /><br />"Desire Modification"..<br />- We have that already. But the US is having a war with it.<br /><br />"OK, time to stop"..<br />- Yep, time to get back to economics!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-62111203294022043392012-12-27T17:25:37.964-05:002012-12-27T17:25:37.964-05:00They ran into the predictable legal/regulatory pro...They ran into the predictable legal/regulatory problems. Who knows when shipped units will actually arrive?<br /><br />Of course, you can buy professional research kits, or stuff manufactured in China, but their price-points are in the thousands or multiple hundreds of dollars (respectively). That's why most anecdotes you see online are from self-made kits.gwernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18349479103216755952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-19512761544727889162012-12-27T15:02:40.997-05:002012-12-27T15:02:40.997-05:00Apparently there are indeed 10 types of people in ...Apparently there are indeed 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary arithmetic and those who don't. :-)Absalonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09131268683451462949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-6995960754750887552012-12-27T14:25:48.372-05:002012-12-27T14:25:48.372-05:00Noah,
There are big challenges ahead to conventio...Noah,<br /><br />There are big challenges ahead to conventional theologies if your musings are right.Bill Ellisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-60446227669315629782012-12-27T14:23:45.659-05:002012-12-27T14:23:45.659-05:00The biggest gains in overall human living standard...The biggest gains in overall human living standards will not be driven by enhancing the productivity of service labor markets in the first world, which is what these cyborg techs would make the biggest changes, but by improving the productivity of the agricultural sectors in the Third world. That can be done with current technology but wit would upend the social and political systems of the third world. These regions could then industrialize further, but beyond the resource and energy constraints that haven't gone away, the future for industry lies in mechanization, not with cyborgs. After all, why maintain any human weakness in the sector when unnecessary? Cyborgs still need to eat, can get sick, might want to have lives outside of work, so forth. So we are left with more production but fewer opportunities for individuals to earn the money they need to have access to this new production, something that is a social and political and not technological problem. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-79333542645371154922012-12-27T14:21:12.028-05:002012-12-27T14:21:12.028-05:00I have the same kind of feeling about it as you. B...I have the same kind of feeling about it as you. But I am not sure about it at all.<br />If everything we are has as its origin or essence a manifestation in the knowable physical world ... then can't it/we be exactly emulated... in theory ? And if so, then can't that manifestation be digitalized ?<br /><br />I don't know. But the part of me that has an open mind about the possibility of theological or supernatural aspects of reality reflexively rejects the Idea that consciousness is computation.<br /><br />There are big challenges ahead to conventional theologies if Noah is right.Bill Ellisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-86816122976858047162012-12-27T13:29:15.249-05:002012-12-27T13:29:15.249-05:00As a stop gap anti-depressants can be a life saver...As a stop gap anti-depressants can be a life saver. On the other hand I have seen "weed" severely impair two promising young lives.Absalonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09131268683451462949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-42484457655606398002012-12-27T13:13:15.508-05:002012-12-27T13:13:15.508-05:00Thanks, please do!!Thanks, please do!!Noah Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09093917601641588575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-50093528640666353902012-12-27T13:13:09.446-05:002012-12-27T13:13:09.446-05:00to assert as fact that there is no third choice in...to assert as fact that there is no third choice in the ocean of infinite unknowns we inhabit is an error. What we don't know is stupefyingly immense. da55idhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02577249392550141662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-51901169273686384412012-12-27T13:12:44.497-05:002012-12-27T13:12:44.497-05:00Some productive capacity lies fallow, but most is ...<i>Some</i> productive capacity lies fallow, but most is being used.Noah Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09093917601641588575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-56016385668669671292012-12-27T13:11:56.324-05:002012-12-27T13:11:56.324-05:00Well, I've looked into this subject quite a lo...Well, I've looked into this subject quite a lot, and concluded that antidepressants are not very effective. Additionally, they never did anything for me.<br /><br />And it's undeniable that psychiatrists and counseling psychologists heavily encourage antidepressant use.<br /><br />So I think my statement is perfectly justified, and probably a lot milder than the truth. Noah Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09093917601641588575noreply@blogger.com