tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post9121283435937202555..comments2024-03-28T03:16:14.104-04:00Comments on Noahpinion: Speech on campus: A reply to Brad DeLongNoah Smithhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09093917601641588575noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-49906292073851680072017-09-28T21:58:44.317-04:002017-09-28T21:58:44.317-04:00In this case, in Berkeley, seems to me that the ne...In this case, in Berkeley, seems to me that the new element was not so much right wing drama queens seeking to provoke, but rather left wing agitators successfully shutting down their show. That has played badly across the country and UC Berkeley has been trying to recover. (Pretty successfully I think, given some smart moves by Carol Christ). <br /><br />Like most of you I admire DeLong and Noah Smiths careful thinking on a lot of subjects, but their efforts, mostly DeLong's effort, to define "legitimate" free speech seem ... impractical and likely to be counterproductive. Any lawyer can give you lots of good reasons for tolerating annoying and even dangerous sounding free speech. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-16254186313998753682017-09-26T17:01:25.278-04:002017-09-26T17:01:25.278-04:001. Yes. But thanks.
2. Yes, it is simplistic. Spee...1. Yes. But thanks.<br />2. Yes, it is simplistic. Speech should not be limited by an institution, only by the listener. Before cellphones, we could identify maniacs by them screaming at apparently nothing on street corners. While it's not so easy now, they spoke, we could identify them. We can identify liars, racists or megalomaniacs today, by their speech. But only if we let them speak.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-36541223870833814452017-09-26T10:49:38.364-04:002017-09-26T10:49:38.364-04:00Was that mangling of Matthew intentional? It's...Was that mangling of Matthew intentional? It's supposed to be "you will know them by their fruits" with "fruits" generally interpreted to mean works, not words.<br /><br />Also, your overall point is simplistic and facile. So what, you think there should be no limits to speech whatsoever? Or there should be limits, but less intrusive than either Noah or Brad suggest? Presumably based on criteria so vague you didn't even bother to lay them out vaguely like Brad did?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-73717199197843608572017-09-26T10:40:34.379-04:002017-09-26T10:40:34.379-04:00As entertaining as this idea sounds, it seems a bi...As entertaining as this idea sounds, it seems a bit like saying, "people should learn not to overeat, so let's put everyone in rooms full of cheeseburgers and pizza for long spells!" Sure, maybe that will help some people develop strategies to deal with tempting food situations...but the direct costs of the education are likely to be pretty dire.<br /><br />Sure, in the abstract we want people to learn how to recognize and avoid provocation. But we also know that in practice people, particularly groups of people, can be provoked. So the first priority here is "prevent violence." Training in resisting demagogues and provocateurs is a good idea, but let's work out some less risky methodology.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-78011842932278406432017-09-25T18:15:13.940-04:002017-09-25T18:15:13.940-04:00Speakers should speak, and expose their ideas. Lis...Speakers should speak, and expose their ideas. Listeners should judge the merit. Institutions should get out of the way. There's a great deal of speech in America I disagree with, and a great deal of that I find quite objectionable. But speak away, buddy. By your words so shall you be known.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-52784261821651231802017-09-24T20:51:23.833-04:002017-09-24T20:51:23.833-04:00Many of the protesters and counter-protesters (in ...Many of the protesters and counter-protesters (in fact, most, I'd say) are not Berkeley students.<br /><br />And "learning to keep your cool" isn't a responsibility of the academy. Lord knows we're asked to do enough babysitting without having to teach basic life skills.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-39637774525087591822017-09-24T07:08:12.496-04:002017-09-24T07:08:12.496-04:00When anyone says that a "university" sho...When anyone says that a "university" should restrict speech what they mean is that university administrators should restrict speech. It's just amazing to me that a tenured professor would say that he and his colleagues should surrender their academic freedom and permit themselves to be punished by a provost for what they write and say.Bloixhttp://www.bloix.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-49571827005788519212017-09-23T23:10:32.951-04:002017-09-23T23:10:32.951-04:00Delong's principles are indeed vague, as princ...Delong's principles are indeed vague, as principles tend to be. But I don't see why that's a problem.<br /><br />You warn of "chaos." Why is it chaotic for different universities to have different definitions of acceptable speech? Universities have all sorts of different standards. People figure out which standards they should adhere to by word of mouth, known precedents, and broad guidelines. Some people will get fired for unknowingly crossing the line, but that happens every single day in every single industry. <br /><br />As for the current campus chaos, I think it's largely a myth. People getting fired? Kids having protests? Certainly some of it crosses a line, and police should get involved it does. But I just don't see campuses as the hemp-wallet hellscapes that conservatives envision.<br /><br />I should also say I'm generally ambivalent about restrictions on speech, mostly because I'm skeptical they'll achieve their purported ends. But I'm just as skeptical they'll produce the negative consequences people fear.Cody Fenwickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04628058260074152911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-29942218093850447002017-09-23T21:50:50.587-04:002017-09-23T21:50:50.587-04:00Noah: "It seems clear to me that university a...Noah: "It seems clear to me that university administrators should stop provocateurs like Milo Yiannopolous from giving speeches intended mainly to provoke violent reactions."<br /><br />It seems clear to me that the basic minimum of university teaching is to teach students not to be provoked into violence by speech that intends to provoke them. They should learn to control themselves and not to be thrown off by manipulation. <br /><br />This is so basic task for academic education that I think there should be mandatory courses for provocation and demagogue where genuine provocateurs would try to provoke students, who have to keep their cool to pass. Make it carnival that happens several times a year. <br /><br />We should inoculate students against neo-nazis and provocateurs by bringing them in in safe quantities and teaching how to deal with forms of manipulative communication, not protect them from that. <br />Nick Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03605461284670931912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-51386582106583651782017-09-23T19:33:07.298-04:002017-09-23T19:33:07.298-04:00Is this a call for organized restriction or self r...Is this a call for organized restriction or self restriction? With rights come responsibilities, and calling on everyone to exercise them, and shaming those who do not is more criticism of it than anti free speech. More, this is about means and ends, criticism, disputation, and protests are part of it, while disruption, shout downs, incitement, and violence are not. Even this is somewhat antiquated these days. What is actually necessary for free speech? Not physical presence anymore. Lordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06747994571555237739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-90749327488199241882017-09-23T17:01:35.438-04:002017-09-23T17:01:35.438-04:00A lot of the right-wing Berkeley stuff involves de...A lot of the right-wing Berkeley stuff involves deliberate mischaracterization of the universities response - claiming exclusion when the outside organizers failed pay rent for large and expensive venues they demanded.<br /><br />Anger and violence are most likely when the university is seen to endorse or subsidize a controversial speaker such as with Charles Murray's at Middlebury. It seems reasonable that a university could require that controversial speakers appear only in formats where opposing voices can also be heard such as with paired speeches or debates or with an audience response period enforced. <br />BCWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06905387799270933298noreply@blogger.com