tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post9220507907117281864..comments2024-03-18T22:32:52.802-04:00Comments on Noahpinion: College is mostly about human capital, not signalingNoah Smithhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09093917601641588575noreply@blogger.comBlogger110125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-28879061344545684132013-08-21T14:38:33.851-04:002013-08-21T14:38:33.851-04:00This is a great article. I 100% think that educati...This is a great article. I 100% think that education is power. Going to college was the best decision of my life and I have benefited from it every since. I received a <a href="http://www.alvernia.edu/academics/adultedu/bachelor-science/index.html" rel="nofollow">bachelor of science in management</a> degree and it has helped me establish myself in the business industry. The most important thing my degree did for me is create opportunities. And with the knowledge and education I learned, I was able to apply myself and take advantage of those opportunities and become successful. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07751388650452541631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-47311759616360091582012-12-11T16:18:15.164-05:002012-12-11T16:18:15.164-05:00This is very interesting to me because I didn'...This is very interesting to me because I didn't do the 4-year university route.<br /> <br />I picked my own school when I was 19, so I ended up going to a school that was not very well researched. So, halfway through decided I was taking the school more seriously than several of my instructors. After deciding that the school was merely tuition-mining, I finished early, got an associates degree, and planned on getting my experience mostly on the job instead. It's been a lot of footwork, but I've got a relatively stable career in a field I am happy with. <br /><br />I have friends who've accomplished more with even less college exposure. <br /><br />And ever since then I've been asking myself "Why do people spend so much at college? What ARE they learning?" I've read a few opinion blogs and articles on the subject, and my conclusion is that most authors have never justified the cost of school, but are attempting to justify their own 'moratorium' from education by partying for 4 years. I enjoyed the article, and you raise some very interesting points about perspective and motivation, but I feel you are ultimately in the same camp as others justifying their own college experience. If college is merely a social pit-stop on the way to a career, shouldn't it be MUCH more affordable? <br /><br />I guess my question is really: If I can figure out all of the skills (including the 3 you've listed) associated with my field of work (graphic design) without going to a 4-year school, why should anyone? <br /><br />Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12741674175489743767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-32557723495715272812012-11-08T10:19:02.293-05:002012-11-08T10:19:02.293-05:00I would like to point out that in order to take th...I would like to point out that in order to take the CPA exam a certain number of accounting class hours are required. So, the fact that people who pass the CPA exam have taken a certain number of courses in accounting is not proof that the courses are required to pass the CPA exam. I believe that statisticians call this bias (i may be wrong about what it is called though).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-58482178320582198512012-10-03T17:25:51.654-04:002012-10-03T17:25:51.654-04:00Apparently there is no like button, but I think th...Apparently there is no like button, but I think this is a fantastic point! Many believe their is a crisis occurring due to the loss of the financially inclined "immigrant mentality", but a collegial environment (pressure from your professor, peers and general campus) can definitely supplement the motivation previously derived from the immigrant mentality. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16667924540547541184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-61654463963912516152012-08-14T00:40:31.935-04:002012-08-14T00:40:31.935-04:00HVAC technicians are among those professionals who...HVAC technicians are among those professionals whose skills are indispensible and always needed, thus they enjoy stability and longevity even if they don’t always show up in a suit to work. If you want a more detailed information about this, click here. <a href="http://hvactrainingschools.net/hvac-training-in-washington/" rel="nofollow">HVAC Schools in Washington<br /></a>Technician 101https://www.blogger.com/profile/01842532573356646314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-85974672820032603942012-07-04T05:35:05.678-04:002012-07-04T05:35:05.678-04:00niceniceHangover Curehttp://www.alcotox.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-50391087633074245092012-07-04T05:34:23.824-04:002012-07-04T05:34:23.824-04:00great workgreat workfirst world warhttp://oldalbion.hubpages.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-60535596018582440072012-07-03T07:02:21.110-04:002012-07-03T07:02:21.110-04:00niceniceMusicaNeohttp://www.musicaneo.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-32117943212427740702012-07-03T07:01:24.565-04:002012-07-03T07:01:24.565-04:00good workgood workaccess-vbahttp://access-vba-code.blogspot.com.brnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-71281718655491221252012-07-02T01:56:36.898-04:002012-07-02T01:56:36.898-04:008:15 has a point about the job market.
However IM...8:15 has a point about the job market.<br /><br />However IMO college is about programming, not in the computer sense but signaling that you are a compliant worker who meets social expectations. Both the US and Japan being very conformist societies crave this sort of thing.<br /><br />This ties in well with what you said about marriage, kids, parties and yes consumption. Someone with little interest in those things is often perceived as a threat to the established system. They are harder to tie down and control, may be power hungry or detached and both the US (with the worlds highest incarceration per capita) and Japan are highly controlled societies. <br /><br />As for "hijinks", they are also tolerated so long as they are the right kind. Generally this is liberal with few exceptions<br /><br />Get busted protesting for say some Green cause or for trivial stuff underage drinking or in some places pot , well whatever. Kids will be Kids <br /><br />Get busted at an anti abortion rally or an anti immigration one or some Hard Right cause and assuming you aren't expelled, you'll be a pariah.Matt Strictlandnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-88848645943767519742012-06-26T20:15:46.205-04:002012-06-26T20:15:46.205-04:00You've missed the point. The PRIMARY societal ...You've missed the point. The PRIMARY societal function of college is to keep millions of college-age individuals out of the job market (college students are not counted among the unemployed). If they all went immediately into job-search mode, the unemployment rosters would skyrocket. In addition, hopefully they will mature a bit, learn some things, and then enter the job market later. Even better, they will go to graduate school and stay out of the job market even longer. OK, you say, what about when they all graduate 4 years later? Nope--Stanford's 98% graduation rate is nowhere near typical. The average 6-year graduation rate is between 30 and 50%, so there is a gradual attrition of drop-outs entering the labor market, rather than a sudden influx. Colleges are to be congratulated for this contribution, and not much else.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-7252231661433408842012-06-25T22:53:14.535-04:002012-06-25T22:53:14.535-04:00Interesting. Thanks for the thoughtful post, Noah....Interesting. Thanks for the thoughtful post, Noah. I went to medical school in South Africa. Straight out of school in the British system of medical training. Six years later, I could deliver babies, take care of the local maladies, and was ready for an internship. We mostly worked, and my networking was minimal. Some fields just don't have time for the capital accrual you describe: we learned something else entirely - productivity.Anthonynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-86950810242726789872012-06-18T22:11:24.955-04:002012-06-18T22:11:24.955-04:00actually, recruiters at Google ask for GPA, SAT, G...actually, recruiters at Google ask for GPA, SAT, GRE, and any other quantifiable scores. They even verify them. At least they did when I was interviewing seven years ago.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-44254546037630727702012-06-15T02:46:02.797-04:002012-06-15T02:46:02.797-04:00Think...Think...Noah Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09093917601641588575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-88881457289199591922012-06-14T23:22:04.652-04:002012-06-14T23:22:04.652-04:00[Sorry if somebody else said this, but I didn'...[Sorry if somebody else said this, but I didn't feel like reading the comments]:<br /><br />So college is useless at signalling intelligence yet it's a place where you go to meet other people who are smart...and you know they're smart because...they're at college...sowhobadawhat?...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-73886264817906335262012-06-13T17:44:36.489-04:002012-06-13T17:44:36.489-04:001. Comments upthread about how little of one's...1. Comments upthread about how little of one's formal education actually was useful/relevant are strikingly naive. All standardized forms of training or education can have only a small overlap with any one of the highly diverse jobs people fill in an advanced economy. In addition, wasted time (both recreational and misdirected vocational) is endemic in everyday work life of all kinds. Using made-up numbers purely to communicate, Wal-Mart seems like an engine of efficiency not because it productively mobilizes 90% of employees' bandwidth but because it harnesses 30% instead of the usual 10%. (As for quality of education, remember Sturgeon's Law.)<br /><br />2. Signaling is an appealing model that doesn't fit much of the data, e.g. http://www.uq.edu.au/economics/johnquiggin/JournalArticles99/HumanCapitalAustER99.html<br /><br />I'm certain signaling plays a role in creating value for certain degrees from certain institutions for certain people in certain situations. That it dominates the value proposition for college seems like a stretch.<br /><br />3. It is true that colleges in the US teach less than they used to. But so do high schools. The value difference between college and high school learning is therefore likely to be more important today than it used to be, if you believe in diminishing marginal returns. It used to be that everybody could read and understand something like Animal Farm, but the college graduates could also understand Milton. Now, nobody gets Milton but only the college grads can process Animal Farm, and for employers the See Spot Run-->Animal Farm jump is more valuable than the Animal Farm-->Milton jump.srpnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-64918472214173222972012-06-13T16:24:40.623-04:002012-06-13T16:24:40.623-04:00I think attending college in the US can, in fact, ...I think attending college in the US can, in fact, be a signal of intelligence/ability. The college admission process in the US is fundamentally different. The academic statistics (GPA & SAT) used are not particularly meaningful. GPAs can't be compared between schools, and even within the same school may be nearly meaningless without weighting. And the SAT I is quite elementary compared to high-stakes testing in Asian countries. So, it falls to the colleges to sort that out. A student who earns a degree from, say, Columbia, Stanford, Yale, etc. is almost certainly quite bright simply because four years earlier they were admitted to their school after passing a holistic filter process that looked at both academic achievement as well as accomplishments outside the classroom. This admissions process is a lot more sophisticated than the process in most other countries, where some combination of test scores and family connections are the main factors. And, in the U.S., students who achieve high scores mainly by single-minded devotion to long hours of study are less likely to be admitted than students with similar scores who had significant non-academic accomplishments. Arguably, the latter group are brighter, amplifying the "signal" for U.S. college attendance.<br /><br />This is one reason why some firms historically recruit heavily from the most selective schools. The initial screening (for basic smarts) has already been done for them.<br /><br />Once outside the realm of the elite schools, the signal is a lot weaker. A degree from a less selective school doesn't say, "this is a really bright young person," even if the grad is as smart as any Ivy Leaguer.<br /><br />Having said all that, I like the human capital argument, too. I think it will be interesting to see how that works out as the college experience changes. With the ever-rising cost of a traditional 4-year residential undergrad education, I see that model crumbling as an option open to most kids.Roger Dooleyhttp://www.rogerdooley.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-92154270794100618242012-06-13T13:10:53.109-04:002012-06-13T13:10:53.109-04:00To all the folks trying to say that disparate impa...<i>To all the folks trying to say that disparate impact laws make it impossible to signal intelligence through testing, I say:<br /><br />Ha. Nice try.<br />---<br /><br />4. No disparate impact laws in Japan.</i><br /><br />But in your article you said:<br /><i>In fact, in Japan, most employment decisions are based on exactly this sort of signal. High school students who want good careers spend all of high school studying for some really long college entrance exams, and employers basically pick the students who get the best scores on these exams.</i><br /><br />So Japan, where you say employers use standardized tests for choosing employees and which has no disparate impact laws, shows that in the US, which has disparate impact laws, employers can do the same thing?Larry Headlundnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-6267921700472730582012-06-13T12:47:03.645-04:002012-06-13T12:47:03.645-04:00... meeting people who inspire you, meeting people...<i> ... meeting people who inspire you, meeting people who are different from you, and building social skills</i><br /><br />Sounds like military service (recruiters version).Larry Headlundnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-30024852146413245322012-06-13T10:34:24.183-04:002012-06-13T10:34:24.183-04:00Ha. No. :)Ha. No. :)Noah Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09093917601641588575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-45281893422874951282012-06-13T07:46:53.435-04:002012-06-13T07:46:53.435-04:00And what does it say about the efficiency of the m...And what does it say about the efficiency of the market?<br /><br />You can claim that markets are somewhat efficient.<br /><br />You can claim that college is mostly about signaling.<br /><br />You certainly can’t claim both (i.e. why wouldn’t someone hire cheaper labor without degrees).neminoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-64350571698953622222012-06-13T07:27:23.325-04:002012-06-13T07:27:23.325-04:00Developing a social skill set is human capital. A...Developing a social skill set is human capital. And since you didn't seem to develop strong social bonds, it's clearly not social capital, though I would say it does signal future social capital. I'm never quite sure why economists attempt to dichotomize building capital and signaling. I'm someone that needs the capital to feel confident in the signaling. I know it's partially a personal failing, but my signaling is always an extension of my personal skills and experiences.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05535803672804127372noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-78702301570907215532012-06-13T07:20:08.547-04:002012-06-13T07:20:08.547-04:00Absolute smackdown. Toga! Toga!
http://econlog.ec...Absolute smackdown. Toga! Toga!<br /><br />http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2012/06/toga_toga.html#commentsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-70333320120595305662012-06-13T07:09:37.280-04:002012-06-13T07:09:37.280-04:00It's not signaling intelligence or motivation,...It's not signaling intelligence or motivation, it's signaling social class.erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15459764573179565354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-76400506582167340742012-06-13T06:59:17.493-04:002012-06-13T06:59:17.493-04:00Yes--and that's why a college degree is more l...Yes--and that's why a college degree is more like a guild membership or a social class marker.erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15459764573179565354noreply@blogger.com