tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post3284646916111389471..comments2024-03-28T03:16:14.104-04:00Comments on Noahpinion: Nerds vs. The EmpireNoah Smithhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09093917601641588575noreply@blogger.comBlogger61125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-73050843368553781342014-08-11T23:38:48.048-04:002014-08-11T23:38:48.048-04:00Mike Myers isn't really Scottish.Mike Myers isn't really Scottish.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-78869317426745398112014-08-09T12:54:42.488-04:002014-08-09T12:54:42.488-04:00Well, Crook swung wide, and I don't blame peop...Well, Crook swung wide, and I don't blame people for being alienated, but there are some very good points in there. These points mirror my problems with the "technocratic liberal" culture, often exhibited in the Krugman-Vox-Yglesias-Noah axis of liberal tribalism, where tribal biases substitute for actual objective analysis.<br /><br />More precisely, these tribal biases are rooted in the sense of belonging to an elite liberal priesthood, and a fear that identifying with the rabble would damage one's social status. This then taints the actual analysis. <br /><br />First, we saw the Export-Import Bank case, where the Tea Party arrived at a technocratically correct policy, that we should get rid of the Export-Import Bank. Rather than admit that, Krugman and Yglesias engaged in a lather of pseudo-analysis to deceive themselves, which Dean Baker easily exploded. Rather than be a real man and admit the tea Party was right, Noah went the middle-school route and mocked people for caring about Ex-Im as a policy issue. If the liberal technocrats are too tribal to admit when the other side is obviously right, and use their intellectual gifts in service of partisan tribalism, then that bolsters the case for libertarianism.<br /><br />Even on the Large Hadron Collider, it appears that physicists held on to a non-credible theory (supersymmetry) for the filthy lucre of Collider dollars for the guv'mint. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/supersymmetry-and-the-crisis-in-physics/<br /><br />So yes, the absence of moral principle and the presence of tribalism does spoil some of the more ideological/partisan nerds, and Crook's got a good point. Keithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17074785490924714533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-91732249399506154952014-08-07T12:58:51.859-04:002014-08-07T12:58:51.859-04:00'I read it, and it ridiculed differential equa...'I read it, and it ridiculed differential equations,'<br /><br />That's a lie. Read the actual quote.<br /><br />'the two defining characteristics of self-professed nerds are (a) the belief that one can discover all of the secrets of human experience through differential equations'<br /><br />Neither differential equations nor mathematical knowledge in general are being ridiculed, just those people who give off an impression that all the answers to life can be divined by plugging a few numbers into an equation. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-69214809376882832462014-08-05T23:19:37.113-04:002014-08-05T23:19:37.113-04:00Wow, an article calling Neil deGrasse Tyson and Pa...Wow, an article calling Neil deGrasse Tyson and Paul Krugman a fake nerd boys. At least he doesn't seem sexist. We usually get this kind of crap ranting about fake nerd girls. Cooke seems upset that some people think certain others are smart and popular, especially since they are people he doesn't approve of. He also seems upset that reality has a liberal bias. Rage against the gods.<br />Kaleberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05283840743310507878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-40670563537813469592014-08-05T23:01:53.199-04:002014-08-05T23:01:53.199-04:00You'll notice that it's been 30+ years and...You'll notice that it's been 30+ years and Star Wars is still pie in the sky and we're still waiting for supply side economics to kick in and give us all a raise. Also, NASA's biggest backers were Republicans like JFK and LBJ. Republicans pay lip service to technology, but they won't spend the money it takes to develop it. Kaleberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05283840743310507878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-52380560348804635722014-08-05T22:03:43.538-04:002014-08-05T22:03:43.538-04:00To label Cooke's article as "anti-intelle...To label Cooke's article as "anti-intellectualism" is either dense or dishonest. Cooke does not criticize the use of data in general, or Excel in particular, but rather the abuse of these to mask one's underlying values as facts. He argues that value judgments (a) must be made on major social issues, and so (b) ought to be stated.<br /><br />I disagree with a lot of what he says, but it's a reasonable argument (underneath all of the hyperbole and pop-culture noise). A similar distinction between "nerds" and knowledge is made by Nassim Taleb, who I wouldn't characterize as conservative or anti-intellectual. The general distinction between the use and abuse of science has been made by Alan Sokal, who is definitely an intellectual and not a conservative.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-47169890718347416802014-08-05T18:59:48.422-04:002014-08-05T18:59:48.422-04:00Maybe I'm just telling the kids to get off my ...Maybe I'm just telling the kids to get off my lawn. What seems different than other pop culture isn't that it's stupid and fluffy (and I don't really object to stupid and fluffy), but the false association between specific stupid and fluffy pop culture and technically sophisticated nerddom.<br /><br />On the other hand, if this was 1969, embracing stupid and fluffy pop culture might be enough to make someone feel like a world-changing radical even if all they were doing was listening to the Byrds. That might be equivalent.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-17880135169066802122014-08-05T14:58:24.550-04:002014-08-05T14:58:24.550-04:00Those aren't actually middle initials standing...Those aren't actually middle initials standing for middle names. Written out he is Charles "Conventional Wisdom" Cooke. And very reckless.<br /><br />I contest the slur of Berkeley "In a cruder manner than Berkeley, Cooke is standing up for the notion that a large enough group of like-minded people can create their own reality. <br /><br />You are discussing Berkeley as presented by Borges. The real Berkeley believed in an external objective reality that might bite one in the ass. He called it "the mind of God." There is a modern tradition of cutting the religion out of it and calling it philosophy. This does not work very well with the writings of clergymen. Now your characterisation might be correct on Tlot, Uqbar or Orbus Tertius, but on Earth, Rove isn't Berkeley on TV.<br /><br /><br />I am impressed by Cooke's contempt for the fact/value distinction. Consider "driven by principle rather than the pivot tables of Microsoft Excel." Now I like moral principles, but one shouldn't decide the probability of Obama winning based on principle. It also goes the other way. No fan of big data thinks our progress could be "assured by ostensibly disinterested analysts." No sane fan of facts think they can be a subsitute for values, priorities or goals. Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14455788499385673507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-40452412567411788162014-08-05T14:46:40.021-04:002014-08-05T14:46:40.021-04:00Are there any who aren't that way? Denouncing...Are there any who aren't that way? Denouncing government, while using both hands to stuff government money into their pockets? Pulling down every service one can (including getting special laws passed), while complaining about laws and taxes?Barry DeCiccohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04735814736387033844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-51265976199120072892014-08-05T14:45:01.106-04:002014-08-05T14:45:01.106-04:00I second this, and challenge Noah - you're an ...I second this, and challenge Noah - you're an economist, you know that to the extent that there is a skills gap, wages would be rising in those areas[1]. Show that[2].<br /><br />[1] Not some tiny niche; there is always a niche which is short of the right people.<br /><br />[2] Corporate lords (or their lackeys) whining that the peasants want three meals a day is not proof. Of course they want MIT grads working for 'three hots and a cot'.Barry DeCiccohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04735814736387033844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-685054328608918622014-08-05T14:41:57.302-04:002014-08-05T14:41:57.302-04:00"Spend some time talking to people on the rig..."Spend some time talking to people on the right about GMOs"<br /><br />Sure - could you please give me a list of Democratic Senators denouncing them, and seeking to ban them? Barry DeCiccohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04735814736387033844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-81551386573324708402014-08-05T11:41:38.724-04:002014-08-05T11:41:38.724-04:00The Cooke piece isn't reasonable and it isn...The Cooke piece isn't reasonable and it isn't well argued.<br /><br />Cooke starts with a Tyson quote that refers to "us" and makes the leap that Tyson and Hayes feel they aren't including themselves in "us," because he assumes they think they are smarter than everyone else. How other than ESP would Cooke know what Tyson and Hayes think? He can't. It's BS.<br /><br />Cooke then supposedly defines "self-professed nerds" as (a) thinking all answers of the human experience come from differential equations and (b) they think they are smarter than everyone else. How does he know what these "self-professed nerds" think other than by ESP? He can't. It's BS.<br /><br />I've engaged his first two "points" to illustrate that they are completely made up. It's lame.BradKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00311675925651145239noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-24622826512346184052014-08-05T10:03:59.473-04:002014-08-05T10:03:59.473-04:00It's hard to be a Republican and a Nerd, or a ...It's hard to be a Republican and a Nerd, or a Southern and a Nerd. Honestly, I sometimes think these people are imposters, implanted into the party to make us look bad to moderates. Sigh, But I know that is wishful thinking. I will continue to lie my intellectual friends about being a Republican. I can't take the shame. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-84777499249272428872014-08-05T08:27:57.864-04:002014-08-05T08:27:57.864-04:00You are right, they dont say anything about cost. ...You are right, they dont say anything about cost. I am guilty of mixing economic concepts (externalities) with climate change modeling, so sue me. You know what, while your at it, sue obama, we all know everything is his fault anyways. <br /><br />Bottom line is that 95+% of climatologists are convinced that climate change is happening here and now. If science is to fancy for ya, take a look at the distribution of record high temperature over time, take a look at when your daffodils are blooming these days, take a look at how far the ice caps are receding in summer, take a look at how far sea levels have already risen, think about what happens to the temperature of something when you insulate it more. The science simply confirms what an unbiased observer has already noticed. Now is it a coincidence? Maybe, but I would suspect that billions of people pumping shit loads of stuff into the atmosphere for hundreds of years would lead to something. <br /><br />Lastly, isnt it funny that the price of fossil fuels doesnt include the costs of the pollution its burning leads to. Hmmm..... perhaps there is an association between that pricing problem and over use? <br /><br />You might be able to see that if you pulled your head a touch farther out of your a$$.studentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-56542533992585165442014-08-05T08:22:49.614-04:002014-08-05T08:22:49.614-04:00"In a cruder manner than Berkeley, Cooke is s..."In a cruder manner than Berkeley, Cooke is standing up for the notion that a large enough group of like-minded people can create their own reality. This notion was put forth explicitly in 2004 by Karl Rove, who declared: “We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality.”"<br /><br />Well, for one thing, in the debate in question, Berkeley was the scientifically literate figure, the one who had made important contributions of his own to the theory of vision in Essay toward a New Theory of Vision and to the contemporaneous debates on the foundations of the new infinitesimal calculus and new dynamics in The Analyst and De Motu. His philosophical theories of the relationship of mind to the world were not offered as a form of skepticism - i.e. "We can't know that there are material bodies, etc." - but as an attempted positive account of the world called "immaterialism." A better contemprary analogy to Berkeley might be one of the several contemporary physical scientists who have been attracted to one of the "many minds" interpretations of QM.<br /><br />Johnson was the witty, cranky, arch-conservative pundit and literateur, purporting to refute Berkeley's theory by appeal to the ordinary common sense of untutored humanity.<br /><br />But more to the matter at hand, if the collection of "nerds" that Cooke singles out were noted for their attemptis to advance democracy by promoting the scientific education of the citizenry while strengthening democratic institutions, then I think Noah's defense of them as the defenders of an enlightened political culture would have more bite. But I have been reading several of those figures for several years now, and in fact, there is a strongly anti-democratic strain in their thinking and what seems to me to be a preference for elite technocracy unencumbered by input from the boobs. I think there is also a naive dimension to their thinking that overestimates the extent to which political choices can be decided, even in principle, by settling the truth about the empirical facts.<br /><br />And I do think that their customary styles of argument are off-putting, condescending and "unattractive" to those who don't already agree with them. On the other hand, I think those uncivil habits are common among many folks in contemprary internet culture, self included.<br /><br />So I think Cooke lands some solid blows here, although in other ways goes off the rails.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-3484314613613612492014-08-05T06:37:56.596-04:002014-08-05T06:37:56.596-04:00Did Noah even care to read the article he so strin...Did Noah even care to read the article he so strindently criticized? I have just read it and it sure seems like a reasonable and well argued text. Like is the case with so many liberals, overcoming an ideological Turing test and seriously engaging points made by someone he doesn't like is above Noah's ability.Or he just can't bring the willpower to do it. The result is lousy, bad fisking. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-21741659065307372242014-08-05T06:21:17.460-04:002014-08-05T06:21:17.460-04:00Tom Baker was totally great. I did not read the ar...Tom Baker was totally great. I did not read the article past the first few paragraphs, since I could not see what differential equations had to do with Star Trek vs Star Wars.<br /><br />I prefer difference equations anyways, since I am going to have to make time to simulate them on my computer. I was teased recently by an Ubuntu user for choosing to install Windows on a VM. So I guess I am not a nerd.Robert Vienneauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00872510108133281526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-9837583012135889962014-08-05T02:38:23.829-04:002014-08-05T02:38:23.829-04:00I read the Cooke piece. It appeared to be mostly ...I read the Cooke piece. It appeared to be mostly a demonstration of Cooke's ESP ability as he repeatedly shared the private thoughts of others. Is it supposed to be a shining example of work from a conservative?<br /><br /><br /><br />BradKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00311675925651145239noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-58257054720295322402014-08-05T00:35:34.398-04:002014-08-05T00:35:34.398-04:00Sure. Berkeley actually had a really good point. A...Sure. Berkeley actually had a really good point. And I think the response to that point was to move toward pragmatism - chair-kicking - and abandon the notion that we can have absolute knowledge of external reality in favor of the idea that we just have to make the best guess we can make.Noah Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09093917601641588575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-11617120121915666352014-08-05T00:34:09.680-04:002014-08-05T00:34:09.680-04:00Actually Berkeley made a very good point, and John...Actually Berkeley made a very good point, and Johnson's "refutation" was actually an early step in a general move away from logical positivism toward pragmatism...Noah Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09093917601641588575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-88750149484153451462014-08-05T00:33:03.028-04:002014-08-05T00:33:03.028-04:00You're wrong, Callahan. Actually, Cooke is jus...You're wrong, Callahan. Actually, Cooke is just saying that oranges are smaller than grapefruit.<br /><br />Huh? He never talked about oranges or grapefruit in the article? Wow, you and I must just have really different readings.Noah Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09093917601641588575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-81531220555281050412014-08-05T00:31:22.573-04:002014-08-05T00:31:22.573-04:00It's pop culture. What do you expect from pop ...It's pop culture. What do you expect from pop culture? And isn't this better than what came before it?Noah Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09093917601641588575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-57118926079820691992014-08-05T00:30:19.234-04:002014-08-05T00:30:19.234-04:00Actually I am the greatest philosopher who has eve...Actually I am the greatest philosopher who has ever lived (short of Winnie-the-Pooh). Prove me wrong!Noah Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09093917601641588575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-58569289324732306612014-08-04T23:23:19.895-04:002014-08-04T23:23:19.895-04:00Noah don't wade into philosophy, modern or oth...Noah don't wade into philosophy, modern or otherwise. It isn't your forte and things get ugly real fast. The rest of your article seems right.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-63945956011748675592014-08-04T23:12:35.585-04:002014-08-04T23:12:35.585-04:00OK, Charles, got it. ;-)OK, Charles, got it. ;-)Noah Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09093917601641588575noreply@blogger.com