tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post5677130207634958981..comments2024-03-28T03:16:14.104-04:00Comments on Noahpinion: Can "culture" predict economic development?Noah Smithhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09093917601641588575noreply@blogger.comBlogger108125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-24759316521156540012013-05-07T20:02:05.149-04:002013-05-07T20:02:05.149-04:00Nice flamewar :) But you are both right.
GDP per...Nice flamewar :) But you are both right. <br /><br />GDP per capita is higher in USA then it is in EU and it really does not matter whose numbers you use (OECD, World Bank, ...), the difference is quite big. The catch is that GDP per capita is just one indicator of how nice is a place to live in. There are so many others and you can pick one you found most important for yourself or one which supports best your nationalistic pride. <br /><br />Even taking this bias into account western Europe is probably the best place to live in on this planet. Many important indicators such as infant mortality, murder rates, social mobility are much better in western Europe then in the U.S. One example: http://www.savethechildrenweb.org/SOWM-2013/#/70/, but there are many others.<br /><br />(I have never lived in USA or in western Europe so this entirely based on statistical data and on zero experience with these places.)<br /><br />P.S.: Luxembourgh's very high GDP per capita is statistical illusion. Many workers who contribute to Luxembourgh GDP are not Luxembourgh citizens but commute from neighbouring countries. Luxembourgh has population cca 300 000 and is a very tiny country. Similarly inadequately high GDP per capita are usual for cities (e.g. Inner London) where many workers commute from outside administrative boundary of the city.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-77294997765597166282013-05-06T14:51:44.390-04:002013-05-06T14:51:44.390-04:00Yes, I agree that culture has some role in economi...Yes, I agree that culture has some role in economic success, but someone who's trying to argue that _Chinese_ culture impedes economic success has to explain how Han Chinese have done disproportinally better economically than the native population pretty much eveywhere they have immigrated.<br /><br />Also, it's hard to tell, (except over the very long-term) whether a charactersitic is good or bad economically.<br /><br />For instance, the Japanese are probably the most collectivist people I know of. That has preserved social harmony & freedoms despite a gigantic economic crash that, in relative terms, was far bigger than the Great Depression. Yet that same collectivism (I didn't realize before marrying my wife that "the nail that sticks up gets hammered down" was an actual common Japanese expression) is not conducive to game-changing innovation. Yet being the most detail-oriented people I know of (I don't know many Germans) has led them to acheive a supreme level of high quality in the products they produce. However, they are also the most socially conservative society (in terms of the societal superstructure) I know of. That has led to lower birthrates, virtually no immigration, and demographic decline.<br /><br /> Dohsanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07884148005077602324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-70464184007671713282013-05-06T11:18:11.804-04:002013-05-06T11:18:11.804-04:00Yes, culture-derp is just thinly veiled racism. Yes, culture-derp is just thinly veiled racism. Noah Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09093917601641588575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-67644043910642718452013-05-06T08:29:58.620-04:002013-05-06T08:29:58.620-04:00Whenever someone starts discussing "culture&q...Whenever someone starts discussing "culture" as a barrier to development, you're almost certainly seeing the same arguments that used to made about "race." I mean, the EXACT same arguments, just with "culture" substituting for race. <br /><br />This particular argument goes back to the Banfield-Bellah debates over 50 years ago. The moral bases of backwardness, QED.Nilshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04220861634503974376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-73629895006522861652013-05-04T00:38:26.088-04:002013-05-04T00:38:26.088-04:00workers ---> pitchersworkers ---> pitchersJohn Snoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-75407806456136525112013-05-04T00:37:27.290-04:002013-05-04T00:37:27.290-04:00Moneyball, Japanese-style
Here's an interesti...Moneyball, Japanese-style<br /><br />Here's an interesting take on the persistence of irrational cultural attitudes trumping science (and even potential mega-$$$): Japan's baseball establishment won't stop overworking young workers (though Darvish's example might change things).<br /><br />http://sports.yahoo.com/news/the-pitch-count-problem--how-cultural-convictions-are-ruining-japanese-pitchers-012016897.html<br /><br />If changing Japanese attitudes about baseball is this hard, how the hell with they ever scrap the inefficient keiretsu model?John Snoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-64018651896375631562013-05-03T18:44:44.460-04:002013-05-03T18:44:44.460-04:00Yeah, it's one of my favorite books ever...Yeah, it's one of my favorite books ever...Noah Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09093917601641588575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-25827409886059253232013-05-03T17:22:26.619-04:002013-05-03T17:22:26.619-04:00Maybe I was just impatient or something, because I...Maybe I was just impatient or something, because I decided to re-read <em>A Deepness in the Sky</em> again in e-book format - and this time I love it. It's great stuff. Bretthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05741738070067590221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-9741180773929668522013-05-03T10:09:40.297-04:002013-05-03T10:09:40.297-04:00I completely agree: I had a similar experience exc...I completely agree: I had a similar experience except I persevered all the way through Use of Weapons. The fact that I (and you) don't enjoy Banks is one reason I thought it would have made a good image.Phil Koopnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-54352226308456382502013-05-03T06:45:21.400-04:002013-05-03T06:45:21.400-04:00Along with the hours worked and higher employment/...Along with the hours worked and higher employment/population, the US's productivity per hour is pretty impressive too. <br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_hour_worked<br /><br />The impressiveness is in part because people out of the workforce tend to be dominated by people you'd expect to be less productive (eg the less-educated, and note this is not a statement about every individual, bad luck plays a role in anyone's life). So all else being equal, we'd expect productivity per hour worked in somewhere like France to be higher than productivity in a country that employs a lot more people.<br /><br />Or, as a very non-PC workmate of mine once put it, "How do the Americans get such great productivity while hiring morons?"Tracy Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08999246551652981965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-83418700353036358242013-05-03T04:10:50.910-04:002013-05-03T04:10:50.910-04:00There have been studies by Voigtlander and Voth (2...There have been studies by Voigtlander and Voth (2012), Alesina and Giuliano (2011), and Doepke and Zilibotti (2008), which show that culture affects a variety of outcomes: violence, political participation, female labour force participation, etc. A good summary of these issues is in Nathan Nunn's paper "Culture and the Historical Process."<br /><br />So the evidence thus far suggests that culture has a role to play in economics. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-48747459866651891132013-05-02T10:42:25.888-04:002013-05-02T10:42:25.888-04:00I think China has already acknowledged the threat ...I think China has already acknowledged the threat of clean drinking water due to their farming practises and water intesive crops, this will not be an issue in the future as long as they have the monetary resources to purchase water.<br /><br />With regards to Coal, it soon will be gone not only due to china's nuclear investments but also because they sit on the largest reservoir of shale gas in the world, much larger than that of the US. Also much deeper engraved within the earth, so it'll take a bit more time for their shale gas boom to come but in time it will come. All they need is the technology to dig too deep and extract that gas out of the rocks, they already have the authoritative system to evict people from areas with potential shale gas resources underneath anyway, so that wouldnt be a huge problem either. <br /><br />on confucianism, i think if any, it's one of the reasons why chinese people have a strange motivation to work hard. The idea behind it is that collectivism, good of the masses is indeed the prime motivation to work and develop and not money as it is the case in western societies (at least not the prime motivation). See, it would only happen that their culture would hinder economic development if the prime motivation of people to produce is economic power (money) or authoritative power. in confuciansim one of those is excluded, economic power isnt the prime motivator for individuals and groups to work or develop, hence individualism wouldnt spur better output but hinder it as the prime motivation is collective wellbeing. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-78684059886630520292013-05-01T23:51:11.659-04:002013-05-01T23:51:11.659-04:00One of China's many problems is that the state...One of China's many problems is that the state, not the private sector, is taking the lead role in directing investment. While the private sector is disciplined by profits and losses, the state faces no such constraints, short of all-out economic collapse.<br /><br />"Since the start of capitalist reforms in the 1980s, China excelled by throwing tons of resources into a modernizing economy — mountains of cash to build factories, roads and apartment towers, and millions of poor people into making iPads, blue jeans and cars. Under China’s “state capitalism,” bureaucrats often directed the cash into massive infrastructure projects or favored industries."<br /><br />http://business.time.com/2013/04/28/the-real-reason-to-worry-about-china/#ixzz2S6RFYbYV<br /><br />And I think this ties in very well with your resource shortage story, Noah. The Chinese state is massively subsidizing inputs for steel, shipbuilding, cars, and other resource-intensive heavy industries. In the absence of such intervention, more accurate prices signals would likely have compelled firms to follow a more sustainable path. When the subsidies are phased out--as they inevitably must be--the entire structure of the economy will have to shift abruptly.<br /><br />It's essentially an Austrian story. And that ain't no derp.John Snoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-19780000406014025292013-05-01T13:12:53.453-04:002013-05-01T13:12:53.453-04:00Cropland isn't too big of a constraint when yo...Cropland isn't too big of a constraint when you consider vertical gardens. An investment in vertical gardens would also alleviate pressure on infrastructure because they would allow significant food production within the cities.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02681526348633581059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-27774338468446285432013-05-01T12:24:36.006-04:002013-05-01T12:24:36.006-04:00Them's fightin words!Them's fightin words!Noah Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09093917601641588575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-83264551169148808632013-05-01T12:09:23.283-04:002013-05-01T12:09:23.283-04:00I'd almost expect from all the 'herp derpi...<i>I'd almost expect from all the 'herp derping' and Japanophilia on this blog that Noah was familiar with 4chan from his younger days...</i><br /><br />:DNoah Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09093917601641588575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-62081592262675438472013-05-01T11:57:46.062-04:002013-05-01T11:57:46.062-04:00For anyone interested, I have some thoughts on thi...For anyone interested, I have some thoughts on this here: http://ashokarao.com/2013/05/01/china-got-99-problems/<br /><br />If anything, I think Confucianism has kept tempered statism. But to the extent it is regressive, there's nothing urbanization and globalization ($$$$) won't solve. Comparing the preponderance of castism in urban India between recent migrants and long-time city-dwellers is an interesting corollary. Ashok Raohttp://ashokarao.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-41080365151814104302013-05-01T11:39:34.615-04:002013-05-01T11:39:34.615-04:00Noah! For shame!
"China is going to run out ...Noah! For shame!<br /><br />"China is going to run out of coal, water, cropland, and other resources because of its huge population and poor resource endowments"<br /><br />What does China care about coal? They are already leading the world in nuclear power plant research AND construction. Coal will be well on it's way out in China by 2030. <br /><br />Water? That's just a matter of water treatment infrastructure and/or river pollution in a country like China (i.e. it not entirely arid like Saudi Arabia). Worse comes to worse they can always desalinate, or grow less water intensive crops, or use less water intensive industrial processes.<br /><br />Cropland? I guess this has the most merit. I really don't see how they have a fundamental problem though, even with current crop yields. But if you need to increase crop yields, there is plenty of room for improvement via GMO & land efficient growing methods (e.g. green houses).<br /><br />The derp has derped the shark.Caseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17908159872038445574noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-55559431356343642922013-05-01T10:27:49.169-04:002013-05-01T10:27:49.169-04:00"Not knowing things is scary. There is safety..."Not knowing things is scary. There is safety in derp."<br /><br />I couldn't stop laughing at this section. I'd almost expect from all the 'herp derping' and Japanophilia on this blog that Noah was familiar with 4chan from his younger days...Alex A.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-55010168885059712442013-05-01T10:00:06.916-04:002013-05-01T10:00:06.916-04:00Thanks, Noah: I was going to recommend (w/ ref to...Thanks, Noah: I was going to recommend (w/ ref to "I'm struggling to think of a concise description of this essay that does not involve the word "derp".") that you trust your instincts, but as has been all too common these past few weeks, I'm a day late and about a buck and a quarter short.JohnRnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-71106292034038405062013-05-01T09:25:24.471-04:002013-05-01T09:25:24.471-04:00It's good that there are people like you out t...It's good that there are people like you out there to caution the rest of us against making sweeping statements, really it is.the idler of marchnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-79668503431257022832013-05-01T09:01:34.195-04:002013-05-01T09:01:34.195-04:00Japanese service could be an area where gdp based ...Japanese service could be an area where gdp based data is misleading since Japanese expect such high levels of service that might not be well reflected. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-56985231398800878722013-05-01T04:07:08.511-04:002013-05-01T04:07:08.511-04:00Well - maybe you state your definition of culture,...Well - maybe you state your definition of culture, then tell me how it wouldn't be the best culprit for explaining that productivity gap. I guess you might draw a line between 'culture' as a long-term, society-wide thing, and 'working habits', as current practices in the business world. But presumably if you believed in that distinction, you wouldn't have cited the GDP figures as evidence in the first place. And my own personal view would be that in the case of Japan, the former explains the latter, anyway. the idler of marchnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-91674406102924595212013-05-01T03:59:04.454-04:002013-05-01T03:59:04.454-04:00Most intellectuals don't, I would say. Moral r...Most intellectuals don't, I would say. Moral relativism is everywhere. <br /><br />Perhaps both the Japanese and the Bible-thumpers of Appalachia think their culture is morally better. The difference is that they are wrong, and I am right.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02900465024382591965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-20243525911209491332013-05-01T02:11:37.110-04:002013-05-01T02:11:37.110-04:00Not that culture can't possibly be related to ...Not that culture can't possibly be related to growth (who the hell knows), but I don't think that westerners are the best judge of that. <br /><br />First, they're steeped in their own culture, so they're not objective judges. <br /><br />Second, they love to think their culture is superior to all others in every way possible, so they're prone to bias in favor of that culture. <br /><br />Third, the westerners who like to judge and compare cultures tend to be fairly lazy and would never actually study, say, Chinese culture before making pronouncements of its potential for development. The westerners who actually do study cultures (let's call them... sociologists) tend not to make such sweeping statements. It's something that comes with knowing stuff about a topic.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com