tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post6440261517580332209..comments2024-03-28T03:16:14.104-04:00Comments on Noahpinion: Back to corporatism?Noah Smithhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09093917601641588575noreply@blogger.comBlogger65125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-87584900072817921832015-03-09T14:03:20.522-04:002015-03-09T14:03:20.522-04:00Noah does not and will never have a tenured job.Noah does not and will never have a tenured job.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-40795397097463320062015-03-09T14:02:16.140-04:002015-03-09T14:02:16.140-04:00We never needed ill-informed and dim people like y...We never needed ill-informed and dim people like you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-58713878807414145142015-03-04T02:13:25.888-05:002015-03-04T02:13:25.888-05:00This is a great point, that could be applied to ma...This is a great point, that could be applied to many situations.<br />It often seems that the point of the argument is primarily to assign blame, with finding solutions a distant second, if it appears at all.Triclopshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13564343287313904105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-10839978554782468522015-03-04T02:09:56.171-05:002015-03-04T02:09:56.171-05:00If someone thinks the available "solutions&qu...If someone thinks the available "solutions" aren't really solutions, or that the problem is still too poorly understood to even define properly, it doesn't make much sense to call that person complacent.<br /><br />I am reminded of a John Wooden quote, "Never mistake activity for achievement".Triclopshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13564343287313904105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-39087171193664652752015-03-04T02:06:21.423-05:002015-03-04T02:06:21.423-05:00I think the biggest problem liberals have with the...I think the biggest problem liberals have with the globalization vs anti-labor argument is that globalization is a nonstarter to many for the simple fact that the argument goes from good labor vs evil capital to the decrease in global suffering at the expense of middle class blue collar US jobs.<br /><br />Which righteous battle would you want to be a part of?Triclopshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13564343287313904105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-48593466410533806012015-03-01T16:20:07.706-05:002015-03-01T16:20:07.706-05:00Barkley Rosser is absolutely correct that it is hi...Barkley Rosser is absolutely correct that it is historically anachronistic to refer to the system J.K. Galbraith describes in the New Industrial State as corporatism (although Noah is not the only commentator to do so). So, what to call that now largely defunct system? My own preference would be Agliatta’s term (which he borrowed from Gramsci), Fordism. Another option would be some variant of Galbraith’s countervailing power, from American Capitalism, e.g., countervalance. Robin Marris’s managerial capitalism (as opposed to contemporary shareholder capitalism) is good too. Certainly, his is the best analysis of the former and the transition to the latter that I have read. But Noah’s comments and questions are nevertheless spot on. fthompsohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13953605115587300660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-6635578168826559642015-03-01T11:39:53.863-05:002015-03-01T11:39:53.863-05:00Surely the fact that the "competitor" na...Surely the fact that the "competitor" nations were largely full of corporatist firms suggests that there are reasons to look for other dimensions of analysis than "corporatism"?Metatonenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-41506454186213293712015-03-01T09:56:04.751-05:002015-03-01T09:56:04.751-05:00"Third, people like to blame their political ... "Third, people like to blame their political enemies for bad things, rather than nature or chance. Blaming the Koch brothers and the South for killing corporate welfare is more pleasing than blaming globalization, because doing the former gives us a reason to beat up on the Koch brothers and the South, while the latter does not."<br /><br /> The latter attitude also gives liberals no hope. What's the point-if supposedly these are the product of these inevitable mechanical processes as inevitable as whether it's going to rain today then what's the answer? Just forget the whole thing and go to Starbucks?<br /><br /> No offense, but it might be easier for guys like yourself or Miles Kimball to be so sanguine. The median American worker today is working in some crummy service job at MCDonalds or Dunkin Donuts. <br /><br /> If most people were in a tenured job at some great university they would worry less about it anyway and say-'Guess that's just how it is.'<br /><br /> I know you criticized being polemical in your other post but it just strikes me as a complacent attitude. Mike Saxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01360689916550576484noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-91000130592413075742015-02-28T05:08:08.489-05:002015-02-28T05:08:08.489-05:00edit: "Koch (or if you prefer, union) funding...edit: "Koch (or if you prefer, union) funding ... is detrimental, why is that not a useful input..."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-3879673182880723992015-02-27T16:00:54.488-05:002015-02-27T16:00:54.488-05:00Wow, the comments are quite something on that post...Wow, the comments are quite something on that post.<br /><br />I note no one mentioned Vietnam, the end of Bretton Wood and the resulting oil crisis, with the failed response by most western governments. I think that the failure of Keynesian theories/practices to deal with the crisis then explains (in large part) the switch to conservative/neo liberal policies.<br /><br />And, from that, all evil ensued.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02635749385748660522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-27961058202416269752015-02-26T16:22:55.759-05:002015-02-26T16:22:55.759-05:00What about these three things:
1) trade imbalances...What about these three things:<br />1) trade imbalances: allow for exporting of jobs as goods can be made overseas and imported for "funny money"<br />2) repeal of Glass-Steagall: allows banks to originate money creating loans to purchase speciously valued derivative securities<br />3) repeal of Bretton Woods: allows banks to set the values of currencies without regard to real economic values<br />David W. Vielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16559249540276639324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-48355473768601167612015-02-26T14:35:49.593-05:002015-02-26T14:35:49.593-05:00Yes, you can redistribute even in a more competiti...Yes, you can redistribute even in a more competitive environment, but there is a price to pay. All the welfare states, even the best managed Nordics, fell behind the US in the last 30 years, despite what conditional convergence would predict. On top of that, the best managed welfare states tend to be ethnically homogeneous, in other words, building a welfare state in the US would make us poorer overall and would necessarily involve social/economic exclusion (like in France) of the old/ young and the minorities. The US experience with the New Deal and minorities was not an accident.<br /><br />Finally, closing up of US economy would lead to the slow down in globalization with the attendant slowdown of global equality. Krzyshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15794655390770135247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-19895421879890810402015-02-26T01:01:35.558-05:002015-02-26T01:01:35.558-05:00Is that you Pope Francis? Look, Corporatism was a ...Is that you Pope Francis? Look, Corporatism was a reaction to the bourgeois state's failures at distribution. Most of you are probably modernists. You believe in mass production, materialism and money. Marxism was the evolution of this to the whole sphere of life. <br /><br />When some "conservative" whines about the sexual revolution. Tell them to blame bourgeois society. It values nothing more than materialism and decadent hedonism to make it work so we keep on producing. The US was a country founded on these principles with Ben Franklin being the ideal of a American. To many "leftists" by the 60's, that kind of hedonism and industrial society was no longer wanted. They bailed. Christians that were(are) smart bailed as well. Now we see cross currents of leftist/Christian alliances fighting climate change coming from mass production and the destructive fuel it needs to sicken society. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-40856949102961025832015-02-26T00:32:56.086-05:002015-02-26T00:32:56.086-05:00I totally agree.
The fact that countries that are...I totally agree.<br /><br />The fact that countries that aren't called America can have a thriving market and a welfare state (albeit many have been diminished of late [Australia for example]) demonstrates that 'data' is already available, one can simply look past one's borders. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-51689184350385249232015-02-26T00:26:45.792-05:002015-02-26T00:26:45.792-05:00Oftentimes on the net you see either or fallacies....Oftentimes on the net you see either or fallacies. In this case it doesn't matter which caused income inequality, it matters how to remedy it._.That is if you care about aggregate human happiness , as it is relational. If you live in a rich area and your kid goes to a great school and my kid lives in a ghetto and goes to a bad, dangerous school I'm sad. And maybe I take a risky loan to buy a nice house and even the rich do as well. Housing bubble based on relational dynamics .Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07944928931697915829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-82796606457206015562015-02-26T00:25:38.467-05:002015-02-26T00:25:38.467-05:00Oftentimes on the net you see either or fallacies....Oftentimes on the net you see either or fallacies. In this case it doesn't matter which caused income inequality, it matters how to remedy it._.That is if you care about aggregate human happiness , as it is relational. If you live in a rich area and your kid goes to a great school and my kid lives in a ghetto and goes to a bad, dangerous school I'm sad. And maybe I take a risky loan to buy a nice house and even the rich do as well. Housing bubble based on relational dynamics .Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07944928931697915829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-277561819758602762015-02-25T20:30:42.833-05:002015-02-25T20:30:42.833-05:00Absalon has got it nailed...Absalon has got it nailed...Doc at the Radar Stationnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-13321130488366436662015-02-25T19:02:21.096-05:002015-02-25T19:02:21.096-05:00I really despise this blogging platform that allow...I really despise this blogging platform that allows a person to type a long post and have it thrown into thin air without so much as a warning.<br /><br />You economists can go have your circle jerk now. You don't need the people anymore.<br />Davenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-55602911440339427762015-02-25T18:23:39.691-05:002015-02-25T18:23:39.691-05:00Living in Scandinavia, this debate strikes me as a...Living in Scandinavia, this debate strikes me as a bit odd. I think it is fairly obvious that increased competition from abroad makes it more difficult to organise redistribution domestivally, but the experience from the Scandinavian countries is that it can still be done. (There have been certain changes in the way this is done, and inequality has increased somewhat, but the social model is still fully operational.) Hence, the changes that have taken place in the USA should be explained by political factors. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-11967730633040147652015-02-25T17:44:05.663-05:002015-02-25T17:44:05.663-05:00Dave,
Since I have come on as Mr. Super Pompo...Dave,<br /> Since I have come on as Mr. Super Pompous (not for the first time here, and apologies for failiing to proofread), let me provide some references for what I put above.<br /><br />Here are some excellent sources on corporatism as an economics system (note: I am coauthor of one of the two leading textbooks on comparative eonomic systems, now being revised for a third edition from MIT Press).<br /><br />Frederic L. Pryor, "Corporatism as an Econmic System: A Review Essay," Journal of Comparative Economics, 1988, 12, 317-344.<br /><br />J. Pekkarinen, M. Pohjola, and B. Rowthorn, eds., Social Corporatism: A Superior Economic System. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1992.<br /><br />This literature distinguises "authoritarian" from "liberal" corporatism, the former being the fascist variety, which also operated in Vichy France. The latter is further subdivided into "consensus" and "conflict" varieities, with the former being represented by Austria, and the latter by pretty much everybody else, mostly Nordic countries, but also Netherlands and some in Latin America occasionally.<br /><br />It was in the 1890s that the Catholic Churhc opined on this, and it was the Church that coined the term, "corporatism," which should make some who are throwing the term around loosely for this and that sit up. The origin of the idea seems to have come originally from French Catholic thinkers of a somewhat liberal orientation, desiring to accommodate the rising labor movement while keeping it in check from overt socialist and Marxist tendencies, to make it respectable within nationalist contexts. The generally accepted father of the idea was Frederic Ozanam, a participant in the 1848 French revolutionary uprisings, but a solid Church follower.<br /><br />The above literature and some other, universally lists the US as being just about the least corporatist nation/economy around, for various reasons.<br /><br />Regarding this weird term, "corporateist welfare state" that has been used recently, this looks like essentially meaningless gibberish to me. From the left it looks like welfare for corporations, which certainly exists in the US, see Dean Baker's book on the Nanny State all about goodies for corporations. It is not obvious to me that this sort of thing has declined recently, so if this is what is meant, "the corporatist welfare state" has not obviously declined.<br /><br />From the right, many would claim that it has not declined because they would focus on the "welfare state" part. While the old AFDC got somewhat limited when it got turned into TANF under Clinton, and a few small programs like public housing have been cut back, the larger parts of the welfare state have been expanding, certainly in terms of share of the federal budget. Even not counting Socials Security or Medicare, look at Medicaid and food stamps. So, no death of the "corporate welfare state" from that view.<br /><br />The only way one can argue that this poorly defined entity is declining is to tie it to the strength and membership of US unions. Yes, they are declining in membership and power, but this has been happening arguably since passage of Taft-Hartly in 1947, or maybe since the mid-1950s. Yeah, Reagan breaking the PATCO strke was a big hit, but just part of a trend, now picking up since Scott Walker did his number on public sector unions in Wisconsin, which might put him in the White House, or so he hopes.<br /><br />Now, it is certainly true that imports have badly damaged core private sector unionis, with much of this happening in the 1980s, although even Reagan attempted to slow this with things like his Voluntary Export Quotas policy with Japan. Was that "corporatism"? Maybe, in that it helped both capital and labor in the auto industry. But, remember that most recent coeporatist economiies have been very open.<br /><br />Barkley Rosserrosserjb@jmu.eduhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09300046915843554101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-87613770742873445862015-02-25T17:42:11.993-05:002015-02-25T17:42:11.993-05:00But haven't most of the licensing requirements...But haven't most of the licensing requirements imposed on doctors come from the left in the name of patient protection? It seems most classical liberals and those on the right oppose these licenses. Regardless, I'm not sure allowing foreign doctors in will bring the same level of competition as outsourcing labor. It's still much easier to do the latter and it allows the foreign labor to remain in their foreign (read cheap) markets.The Donkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14153840277624094270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-61285515700476966982015-02-25T15:41:44.420-05:002015-02-25T15:41:44.420-05:00How could we possibly have a coherent conversation...How could we possibly have a coherent conversation about this when everybody thinks everybody else doesn't know what they're talking about?<br /><br />Your historical perspective is interesting.<br /><br />Now, if we're going to solve new problems we should talk about the new problems.<br /><br />The globalization of today is quite a bit different than the globalization of old.<br /><br />That would be a place to start a meaningful conversation.<br />Davenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-7188560602182380982015-02-25T15:35:07.552-05:002015-02-25T15:35:07.552-05:00Those are income shares, not income levels.Those are income shares, not income levels.Noah Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09093917601641588575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-11952779385611867852015-02-25T15:26:05.920-05:002015-02-25T15:26:05.920-05:00PS I'm really more of what a European would ca...PS I'm really more of what a European would call a social liberal than a classical liberal myself, but you're an oddball enough in the US just being any kind of liberal other than left.Tom Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11247836188106712069noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-79633968442738293352015-02-25T15:11:00.887-05:002015-02-25T15:11:00.887-05:00I'll give you that point, I wrote too hastily ...I'll give you that point, I wrote too hastily there. Kohl is at the least a very different kind of conservative, and unlike the other two more than just influenced by liberals, arguably as much a liberal as a conservative. There's a lot of overlap in the European center-right. And I do also tend to lazily lump together the various kinds of European liberals, for whom "classical" is a much more particular distinction than in the US.Tom Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11247836188106712069noreply@blogger.com