tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post7653924575038073000..comments2024-03-28T03:16:14.104-04:00Comments on Noahpinion: Racial bias in police killingsNoah Smithhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09093917601641588575noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-10401678513764233372015-10-23T09:20:35.412-04:002015-10-23T09:20:35.412-04:00BTW, physics envy I think refers to something Paul...BTW, physics envy I think refers to something Paul Samuelson in particular was guilty of: the wish to be seen to be as smart as top theoretical physicists, which led him to over-mathematize the subject and neglect ordinary language. For proof near the end of his life he compared himself to Euler, Gauss, etc. He had a terrible inferiority complex. And his influence on the profession has been both enormous and damaging, in my opinion.Luke Leahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11290760894780619646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-70163171633074762222015-10-23T09:16:26.547-04:002015-10-23T09:16:26.547-04:00Have you listened to Heather MacDonald's recen...Have you listened to Heather MacDonald's recent testimony before Congress? Do you read her? She seems way too important, and too sensible, to ignore. http://goo.gl/uV4zKgLuke Leahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11290760894780619646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-19288625360741653642015-10-22T17:56:30.085-04:002015-10-22T17:56:30.085-04:00Great point.Great point.Noah Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09093917601641588575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-21434467772925154742015-10-22T15:03:25.632-04:002015-10-22T15:03:25.632-04:00I agree with a lot of this.
Also, black people h...I agree with a lot of this. <br /><br />Also, black people have more erroneous interactions with police. If you get stopped once you probably think there is a good reason. If you're stopped constantly for dubious reasons, or know people who are stopped for dubious reason, you are more likely become belligerent and question subsequent stops.Zachhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01115366572915518720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-83487260326860725362015-10-19T16:01:56.068-04:002015-10-19T16:01:56.068-04:00"Black people are more commonly seen as chall..."Black people are more commonly seen as challenging cops' authority, probably because a lot of black people grew up in a state of relative anarchy and therefore lack other people's conditioned response of instant meek submission to police."<br /><br />I'm not quite sure why you make this assumption. It seems to me at least as likely that cops more readily perceive black people to be insubordinate. That is, had a white person acted just as Eric Garner had, police would have been much less likely to perceive it as insubordinate, and thus less likely to respond with violent force.Cody Fenwickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04628058260074152911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-91049265099992687102015-10-19T15:03:09.321-04:002015-10-19T15:03:09.321-04:00I like this fake discussion about "disproport...I like this fake discussion about "disproportional" victimization of blacks. It's only possible by not looking at the offending rates.<br /><br />Given that young black men (20-24) are roughly 40 times more likely to be involved in homicide (and by extension in violent crime) than corresponding whites, I find it surprising that cops don't shoot them more. That actually speaks to excellent training.Krzyshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15794655390770135247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-44337493120718655322015-10-19T13:25:08.603-04:002015-10-19T13:25:08.603-04:00There's been some studies on this where the br...There's been some studies on this where the brain needs different frameworks. To survive in high violence poverty areas one has to have habits showing one is not a victim. While that's successful in some settings in other settings (interactions with politics, interactions at school) that can be counterproductive. While I'm sure you look askance at the podcast Freakanomics had an interesting show about this and attempts to solve it in Chicago and elsewhere with cognitive behavior therapy. (See <a href="http://bycommonconsent.com/2015/10/18/book-review-evolving-faith-wanderings-of-a-mormon-biologist/" rel="nofollow">here</a> and <a href="http://freakonomics.com/category/freakonomics-radio/podcasts/" rel="nofollow">here</a>)Clark Goblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03876620613578404474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-1925826257235997412015-10-19T09:29:24.047-04:002015-10-19T09:29:24.047-04:00totes.
training wheels, you're why I support ...totes.<br /><br />training wheels, you're why I support (but discount) anon posters.<br /><br />-----<br /><br />to make good public policy, wonks must deal w reality of hegemony:<br /><br />https://medium.com/@morganwarstler/do-progressives-fake-naivete-94eedc4c961d<br /><br />What strategy do cops use when they want more "public" support? Let everybody see what happens when they take a breather. Who are they negotiating with? <br /><br />There are Carmen like cops, but the vast bulk of them IMO are bureaucrats who get paid, like all bureaucrats, to make sure the top half's (hegemony) normative reality is enforced.<br /><br />If you don't start there, it's very hard to make policy, bc it'll sound like you are making policy and actually you are just complaining about hegemony.<br /><br />Which is fine, but good lord, stop calling yourself a wonk.Morgan Warstlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04055941003347768891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-16484733478533945062015-10-19T07:12:50.462-04:002015-10-19T07:12:50.462-04:00They should push back with "You're a cree...They should push back with "You're a creepy doofus".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-427008890958068952015-10-19T01:14:14.858-04:002015-10-19T01:14:14.858-04:00Wrath is irrelevant. This is just the vector. Wh...Wrath is irrelevant. This is just the vector. What drives that behavior is lack of accountability. CoPS know that there's little consequence for killing civilians. That's why they kill so many. <br /><br />As to racial prejudice, there is little evidence for it. Considering the extremely high crime rates of young black men, it seems to me that the number of young black men killed by cops is disproportionately low.<br /><br />The big problem is cops killing so many people: 10% of all homicide victims. This is horrific. Krzyshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15794655390770135247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-42201696865429354012015-10-19T00:27:14.150-04:002015-10-19T00:27:14.150-04:00It's worth noting that as tragic as the killin...It's worth noting that as tragic as the killings of Garner/Scott/DuBose are, very few *unarmed* African Americans are killed by police.<br /><br />http://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings/<br /><br />28 in the last year. But if you look at their stories, the police had reason to fear their lives in a few of these stories as well. <br /><br />I believe that police brutality against African Americans is a problem, but I think we're exaggerating the occurrence of these especially tragic incidents.Elan Bhttp://alpha61.com/primenumbershittingbear/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-39326383510345839442015-10-18T19:41:29.979-04:002015-10-18T19:41:29.979-04:00You don't need to believe cops believe black p...You don't need to believe cops believe black people are more likely to do something threatening, you just need cops to believe black people are more likely to do something illicit. Interpreting innocuous behaviour as sinister behaviour explains both relatively high levels of interactions for innocuous things, and why the innocuous interactions turn violent when an innocuous action is misinterpreted in a sinister way.Andrew Greschnernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-10503810793886061372015-10-18T18:05:37.549-04:002015-10-18T18:05:37.549-04:00"This psychologically plausible hypothesis is...<i>"This psychologically plausible hypothesis is also parsimonious, because it allows police racism to explain both racial profiling and excess unjustified brutalization of black people." </i><br /><br /><br />I tend to think that black people have more violent interactions with police because, for some reason they have significantly more violent lives than americans of other backgrounds.<br /><br />For instance, of police killed by civillians, 50% are killed by black civillians. This sounds really disproportionate when you consider that black people are about 12% of the population. In fact it would seem indicative of a longstanding racial conflict.<br /><br />But then you also need to consider the bigger picture: black people commit about 50% of murders in the general population, too, so why should killings of police officers be any different? In light of this the fact that 30% of victims of police killings are black should strike us as surprisinly low,not surprisinly high.<br /><br />https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States#Homicide<br /><br />https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/wp/2015/01/09/are-black-or-white-offenders-more-likely-to-kill-police/R.U.Battynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-85522573884679972512015-10-18T16:29:40.933-04:002015-10-18T16:29:40.933-04:00Interesting.... I suspect that the post-9/11 exce...Interesting.... I suspect that the post-9/11 excess of worship of authority in general has massively increased the sense of entitlement and expectations of deferenceof the police (and the liltary). As an affluent white male even I do not want to have anything to do the police under just about any circumstances.<br /><br />When I was much younger and living in the UK a much older relative said frequently that the police were totally corrupt, but at that time the UK was pretty smug about their wonderful and honest police force. Fast forward to Guildford pub bombings etc, and eyes were open over the following years. Trust lost cannot be easily regained. It will be interesting to see if the erosion of trust and confidence in the police in the US grows and is sustained, especially by the younger generation. I believe this would be a good thing, as excessive deference to authority to deleterious enemy to a robust democracy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-921240606088469202015-10-18T15:16:21.984-04:002015-10-18T15:16:21.984-04:00I think you get close but miss it...
I'd argu...I think you get close but miss it...<br /><br />I'd argue cops see themselves as cross between bureaucrat and animal trainers. You say:<br /><br />"Black people are more commonly seen as challenging cops' authority, probably because a lot of black people grew up in a state of relative anarchy and therefore lack other people's conditioned response of instant meek submission to police."<br /><br />I'm not sure I even agree, but...<br /><br />Most cops I know have a very simple take: "do what you are told, so I can get thru with my job fast." (be a good dog, so I can be good bureaucrat).<br /><br />Meek submission is not what people unafraid of police do, they say "yes officer, no officer, my apologies, is there anyway sir..."<br /><br />Interaction with cops for upper class folks with far more status and power, they never feel like they are being a good dog... isn't submission to the cop, it's support of the system that ensures your big house and happy family pay lower security costs.<br /><br />When I warn cop friends that they are about to be in the Customer Service business and must be kinder with lower class because of cameras and tech..., they don't push back on "that reduces my status" they push back with "this is going to make you less safe."Morgan Warstlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04055941003347768891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-56774374879245257682015-10-18T14:58:33.632-04:002015-10-18T14:58:33.632-04:00Yes, my hypothesis is that whites are less insubor...Yes, my hypothesis is that whites are less insubordinate than blacks, on average. Whites are more likely grow up thinking that the police can be called on for dispute resolution - i.e. that the system is on their side. Also, weak institutions in heavily black areas (the "state of relative anarchy") probably leaves black people less conditioned to immediately submit to authority.Noah Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09093917601641588575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-69123979882560639832015-10-18T14:55:28.439-04:002015-10-18T14:55:28.439-04:00Why are they angry at black people? Or does that a...Why are they angry at black people? Or does that angry response happens when whites are insubordinate?<br />Are whites less insubordinate than blacks?<br />How are they not more likely to shoot blacks and still kill more of them?<br />If you include non-deadly encounters what is the percentage of cases where violence escalates versus those in which it deescalates involving white vs those involving blacks?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-67881936550013339512015-10-18T14:40:14.568-04:002015-10-18T14:40:14.568-04:00Or those they are most suspicious of, and cops are...Or those they are most suspicious of, and cops are selected and trained for assertiveness. Lordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06747994571555237739noreply@blogger.com