tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post8958080694362224221..comments2024-03-18T22:32:52.802-04:00Comments on Noahpinion: Jewish vs. Japanese argument cultureNoah Smithhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09093917601641588575noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-4779299547192466662016-06-22T23:54:49.194-04:002016-06-22T23:54:49.194-04:00I have relatives in both countries and agree that ...I have relatives in both countries and agree that the Koreans are more argumentative than the Japanese. In fact the Koreans want to win arguments so much that they constantly lie.<br /><br />http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2005/07/03/2005070361027.html<br /><br />The comfort women issue is a typical example of that.<br /><br />http://scholarsinenglish.blogspot.com/<br /><br />I agree with Noah that the Japanese being averse to argument is definitely setting them back. For anyone who can read Japanese, the following article compares Japanese and Jewish very well.<br /><br />http://blog.goo.ne.jp/qwerty765/e/c5f4f3fc3931a191c76b770548b48f4eHyung-Sung Kimhttp://xcvbnm67890.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-32067602535941998852015-03-29T12:22:22.908-04:002015-03-29T12:22:22.908-04:00I think Zen questions is more important for the Ja...I think Zen questions is more important for the Japanese than debate<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOaAPx5kPOU<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-26005229065357423832014-05-05T12:42:08.398-04:002014-05-05T12:42:08.398-04:00Of course Jews have a culture of argument. Not ju...Of course Jews have a culture of argument. Not just in religious debate. Friends. Husbands and wives argue. Siblings argue. Business partners argue. Over everything and nothing.<br /><br />What Jews don't have is a culture of violence. Jews yell at each other without coming to blows. Something that would cause an Irishman or a Texan to punch you in the face just results in more yelling.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-48520473614545973872014-05-01T21:25:33.434-04:002014-05-01T21:25:33.434-04:00This type of Sapir-Worf reasoning has become the l...This type of Sapir-Worf reasoning has become the last refuge of racist arguments about people. <br /><br />The problem is that language structure has never been shown to imply anything.<br /><br />It is like that dumb Eskimos have some huge number of words for snow. Inuit adds adjectives to the noun so just because wet and snow are pushed together doesn't mean anything about the Inuit.<br /><br />If there is a genuine sociological aspect of society it rarely if ever has any effect on the structure or words within a.language.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13305124836711242805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-67583532363988269102014-04-29T15:09:31.051-04:002014-04-29T15:09:31.051-04:00I'll also point out (as someone with many Isra...I'll also point out (as someone with many Israeli relatives) that Israel is pretty poorly governed in a lot of ways. Israel sort of has the opposite problem of Japan: the political system is so fractured that no party has ever won an outright majority in the parliament, forcing the large parties to form coalitions with smaller ones, and thereby giving small constituencies (ultra-Orthodox Jews and West Bank settlers being the primary examples) far more influence than their numbers alone would warrant. Something like the Jewish debate culture may be useful for societies, but it is not sufficient to ensure good governance.NBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07541360846330268538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-82558586418966890392014-04-29T12:25:43.163-04:002014-04-29T12:25:43.163-04:00Noah, perhaps you could change your description of...Noah, perhaps you could change your description of Jewish culture as one of "argument". Jewish tradition values intellectual curiosity and debate, not argument. How about "culture of intellectual debate"? I know what you mean, but using the term "argument" is fuel for the fire of anti-Semites who insist on painting Jews in the worst possible light at any small provocation. You've unintentionally given them that fuel here.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-9386065213667681292014-04-29T12:21:39.300-04:002014-04-29T12:21:39.300-04:00Squarely Rooted, your "hunch" is just an...Squarely Rooted, your "hunch" is just anti-Semitism. First of all, from what I've observed, Jews don't have a culture of argument - they have a culture of intellectual debate. Second, the Jews can't be blamed for the persecution that has befallen them throughout history; they've just been convenient scapegoats for problems they didn't cause. Third, Jews don't live in "everyone else's countries". You understand that Judaism is a religion, right? You understand that one can be an Italian Catholic or a German Christian or a British Jew, right? Jews live in their own countries across the globe. They are not outsiders. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-14426548989921206542014-04-29T04:11:36.916-04:002014-04-29T04:11:36.916-04:00I'd argue it's not either or. Anything tha...I'd argue it's not either or. Anything that rouses passions will see both argument and debate taking place. You can't start a political movement without finding common ground with other like minded people, which happens through discussions and debates. Political opponents are of course by definition not like minded, and thus fair targets for angry argumentation. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-37360899492862346702014-04-28T21:02:26.970-04:002014-04-28T21:02:26.970-04:00You could make the same argument about men and wom...You could make the same argument about men and women. The real trick about getting the reticent to come forward is to ask them about theirs before you tell them about yours, and you have to be like I don't know, what do you think, and then accept what they tell you.EliRabetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07957002964638398767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-19134185069030529582014-04-28T19:53:43.079-04:002014-04-28T19:53:43.079-04:00Right. There have been lots of institutions adopte...Right. There have been lots of institutions adopted to get people to give input in corporate settings. But the suggestions they give are rarely debated, which is a problem.Noah Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09093917601641588575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-46296764471060202402014-04-28T19:52:50.868-04:002014-04-28T19:52:50.868-04:00Well, I think violent or angry argument is differe...Well, I think violent or angry argument is different than friendly debate.Noah Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09093917601641588575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-63591912731665253402014-04-28T16:48:43.574-04:002014-04-28T16:48:43.574-04:00The liberal 1920s was marked by so much argumentat...The liberal 1920s was marked by so much argumentation and mudslinging that people began to tire of politicians, paving the way for effective military control of Japan, Perhaps it is the military that should be blamed for laying the foundation, with their extreme insistence on national unity and obedience to authority. The 1960s did see a political radicalization of students, but afterwards everybody seems to have fallen into line again. And that's a bit mysterious, because yesterday's students are today's professors. Strange that their papers lack argumentative fervor. <br /><br />In any case, my point is that there has been times when the Japanese have been very argumentative (and such times can return). So I think the main reasons for their current non-confrontational behavior are of more recent date than whatever cultural patterns has survived since the end of the Shogunate. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-62021686903424453032014-04-28T15:54:21.689-04:002014-04-28T15:54:21.689-04:00OMG! This post almost perfectly encapsulates my ...OMG! This post almost perfectly encapsulates my own culture shock from living in close contact with my sister-in-law's asian/diplomat family. I'm always getting myself in trouble because I keep trying to engage her family in a good argument (although I'm not Jewish, I do have a very argumentative family). Her dad, especially, will get up and actually leave the room if I (or my brother) try to have an intelligent discussion with him in which we don't completely agree with his position, which needless to say I find extremely offensive. It's a very frustrating experience for me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-56168788014296108012014-04-28T15:46:22.022-04:002014-04-28T15:46:22.022-04:00Interesting point. Now you mention it, I have seen...Interesting point. Now you mention it, I have seen this in Japan myself.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-80784551697856172922014-04-28T13:14:08.077-04:002014-04-28T13:14:08.077-04:003 years (well, 3.5) is the total time. "Quite...3 years (well, 3.5) is the total time. "Quite a few" = the # of years I have been going to Japan regularly, which is 12.Noah Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09093917601641588575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-31799208602925739042014-04-28T11:09:07.242-04:002014-04-28T11:09:07.242-04:00And Japanese white-collar productivity, which is l...<i>And Japanese white-collar productivity, which is legendarily low, might be improved slightly if employees and managers were more willing to debate with each other </i><br />According to what I have read about Japanese manufacturing management, blue-collar employees are expected to, and do, provide a continuous stream of suggestions for process improvement, many of which are adopted. Of course this is probably not structured as 'argument'. Still, this alleged disparity is puzzling.Argosy Jonesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-29584329213796310952014-04-28T10:54:54.778-04:002014-04-28T10:54:54.778-04:00Inscrutable (Japanese?) Oriental, distant New York...Inscrutable (Japanese?) Oriental, distant New Yorker (me?), reserved Brit (Londoner?) > severe overcrowding?<br /><br />When I was a high school kid in the Bronx (1960) I used to take long walks between 2 and 4 AM to get away from the sardines. My brother used to go down to Yankee Stadium at 4 in the morning to run on the track across the street.<br /><br />Last visit in 1992, the Manhattan crowds reminded me of the crowds in the last scenes in the "Invasion of the Body Snatchers"; seemed distant from each other. As a native I understood their need to stay away from the others (so many others) so you could remember who you are. Seriously.<br /><br />I got back to San Francisco and -- the second time -- my Irish babbling away in the taxi drivers' waiting room drew an old Chinese driver to yell from across the room "You should keep it to yourself!", I caught it. Overcrowded: different versions of isolating yourself (so you can remember who you are) -- in the Orient this may have thousands of years of cultural impetus. May be related to the non-argumentive thing.<br /><br />Oy! (As a son of an Irish/Jewish neighborhood I can attest the Jews like to argue. :-]) Denis Drewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11833367196756465896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-82786804193263995442014-04-28T09:17:41.178-04:002014-04-28T09:17:41.178-04:00Hmm want to test your theory but I don't know ...Hmm want to test your theory but I don't know any Jews or Japanese Grey Enlightenmenthttp://greyenlightenment.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-58726150591732018052014-04-28T09:09:53.925-04:002014-04-28T09:09:53.925-04:00Japanese argue, politely, but as intensely as ever...Japanese argue, politely, but as intensely as ever, and they take revenge on things we will ignore.KVnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-60786005579675977972014-04-28T08:30:13.858-04:002014-04-28T08:30:13.858-04:00You must really hate Aaron Sorkin!You must really hate Aaron Sorkin!Carrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01807826053923899970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-61439838397486862692014-04-28T08:27:31.125-04:002014-04-28T08:27:31.125-04:00What is Noah's way? Japanese or Jewish?What is Noah's way? Japanese or Jewish?KVnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-21139544490060590422014-04-28T08:16:30.602-04:002014-04-28T08:16:30.602-04:00You could go for the Pseudo-Gladwell explanation.
...You could go for the Pseudo-Gladwell explanation.<br /><br />Cultural differences based on "Outliers" seem to be at least partly, if not entirely, due to differences in language structure. In this case the Japanese un-argumentativeness is a function of their ridiculous (from a native American English speaker's perspective) number of tenses and pronoun forms for addressing people at different social levels.<br /><br />Compare the "stereotypical" Korean Airlines co-pilots whose very language of ingrained respect for superiors was a barrier to their saying a vitally necessary "You idiot, you're flying us into a mountain!".<br /><br />American English is pretty unique even among the more freewheeling Indo-European languages in the absence of a T-V distinction, I understand Japanese has something like a dozen levels of infamiliarity.<br /><br />It's a relatively simple hypothesis to check though. Do Koreans, with a similar language structure, have a similar disinclination to debate?<br /><br />I wonder to what degree American Jewish culture actually is more argumentative than Mainstream American culture. (A quick look shows Arabic and Hebrew lack a T-V distinction and special forms of address are limited to the deity.)JJFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11948014831964413383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-67767294114248603182014-04-28T08:03:11.659-04:002014-04-28T08:03:11.659-04:00In this post you write "But after living in J...In this post you write "But after living in Japan on and off for a quite a few years", yet on your Welcome to Noahpinion page (http://noahpinionblog.blogspot.jp/2010/04/welcome-to-noahpinion.html) you state "..I've written a lot about Japan, where I lived for about 3 years."<br />It's difficult for me to take you seriously when you equate "quite a few years" to three years.<br /><br /><br />Markhttp://www.letsjapan.markmode.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-57483278580978409162014-04-28T06:50:09.458-04:002014-04-28T06:50:09.458-04:00Maybe it's about the role of language and writ...Maybe it's about the role of language and writing? A sign can mean a whole word, and a word can have different meanings and each word opens a world of possibilities? Maybe for Japanese, arguing is not only fighting with words, but also fighting with all kinds of subtle meanings and concepts. And arguing about concepts is always a little like arguing about the worth of a person's belief system and the Japanese are rather polite, aren't they? (Another cliché...) Numbers are less dangerous than words in that context.Alexander Sebastian Schulzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15135338616598357444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17232051.post-89537775440330448942014-04-28T06:03:15.971-04:002014-04-28T06:03:15.971-04:00I have a hunch that there's a connection betwe...I have a hunch that there's a connection between the causes of Jewish argumentativeness and being a permanent variously-tolerated-and-persecuted minority in everyone else's countries for many centuries.Squarely Rootedhttp://squarelyrooted.comnoreply@blogger.com